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D&D Monster Manual (2025)

D&D (2024) D&D Monster Manual (2025)

That's fair, I guess. Is there anything that came before that the change invalidated, though? Was there an adventure that had something that didn't work or fit anymore?
I'm not @dave2008, but for me the sense of the Blood War not quite fitting wasn't because it invalidating anything preexisting, but that it was introduced as something that had already been happening for millennia and which influenced every aspect of fiendish life. It was a bit like learning that all fiends speak with a French accent. I mean, I guess that's something that could always have been true, but in that case, why hadn't I noticed before now?​
 

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That's fair, I guess. Is there anything that came before that the change invalidated, though? Was there an adventure that had something that didn't work or fit anymore?
@Echohawk explained it pretty well here, but I will expand on that a bit.

We never really bought adventures when we started playing. We didn't have access to many and we neither saw them as necessary nor did we understand how to use them. The lore of D&D to us was what was in the core books and that was primarily from the MM1, MM2, Deities & Demigods, and to a lesser extent the PHB and DMG. So when the Blood War came along it wasn't that it invalidate some unnecessary adventure module or supplement, but our fundamental understand of how the game worked, how our game world worked. I am exaggerating a bit, but it felt like having your heart ripped out (I really like demons, devils, and dragons) - until we realized we could just reject it of course! From my perspective (at the time), invalidating our game was much worse than invalidating some random TSR book with lore I didn't know or care about.
 

The cover art is rather good but I think I preferred the 3.5 style (leather bound bestiary)
Nooooooooooo! I hated the 3-3.5e style covers. They were one of the reasons I stayed away from that edition.

Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK. Everyone is different and that is OK.

JK, I am not really that horrified :LOL:
 

To expand on this a bit (okay, a lot). If your view of "lore" is that it is primarily the story of the worlds of the D&D cosmology (i.e. metaplot), then there is definitely a thread running from 1e-3e that was broken for 4e and 5e. However, if your view of lore is that it is more the backstories of individual monsters, places and items, then you probably didn't experience quite as much of a disconnect across editions.

The approach to D&D continuity has varied a fair amount across editions.

1st Edition
When the Monster Manual was published there wasn't exactly a lot of existing Basic D&D to be consistent with, but it is worth noting that the B/X and BECMI line of D&D products ran all the way through 1e with no effort made to keep any form of continuity between the lines. Events occurring in one line had no impact on the other, the cosmology and hierarchy of divine beings/immortals was very different. Monsters with the same name had different abilities. The D&D brand was quite happy to have a biversal approach to lore throughout this period with seeming little complaint from customers. Only in the 2e era was the Basic D&D line finally merged into the main D&D line as the world of Mystara.

2nd Edition
This is the edition of the rules that was the most respectful of past lore, typically treating all 1e content as canon, and expanding the cosmology to explain the existence of myriad campaigns worlds, even eventually incorporating Basic D&D/Mystara. In-world reasons were provided for most lore changes resulting from mechanical differences between 1e and 2e. The 2e approach to continuity was additive, avoiding new lore that contradicted existing lore. When 2e did contradict past lore, it was almost always accidentally, and simply because there was so much lore to keep track of.

3rd Edition
This was the first edition that wasn't shy to drop lore that didn't work well mechanically, or which needed streamlining. Overall, 3e tended to be mostly respectful of lore from past core books, fairly respectful to lore from past adventures and supplements and occasionally respectful to lore from D&D magazines and other sources. For 3e, you were less likely to get an in-game reason for changed lore; the approach was typically to pretend that things had simply always been that way. ("Yes, galeb duhr have always had four limbs, why do you ask?") Campaign setting material tended to be compilations, updates and expansions of older sources with a gradual progression of world timelines.

4th Edition
This was the edition by far the least respectful of past lore, entirely by design. Not only did the rules system get a significant overhaul, but the cosmology, origins of the world, and backstories of many creatures were rewritten. This edition took liberties with settings too. The Forgotten Realms had a massive timeline jump and another cataclysmic event. Dark Sun was rebooted back to the beginning of its original timeline. Only Eberron escaped significant change, with 4e keeping the timeline where it was in 3e.

5th Edition
The current version of D&D is respectful of past lore, but ready (sometimes even eager) to ditch anything that gets in the way of modern design goals. 5e draws heavily on all previous editions, but does not further develop the existing timelines of any settings (except vaguely the Forgotten Realms), preferring to reboot (Ravenloft), reset (Planescape, Greyhawk) or selectively reuse (Dragonlance, Spelljammer) settings as seems appropriate to make them accessible to newer D&D players. 5e has probably made the most changes to monster lore within an edition, something which didn't start with the 2024 rules, but goes back to at least Monsters of the Multiverse.


This evolving approach to D&D continuity is complex enough that I have no trouble understanding several seemingly conflicting opinions. I get @Micah Sweet's distress that the story of the D&D cosmology is no longer being told. I understand @the Jester's disdain for mid-edition tweaks to monster classifications. I can also see why many people don't see any problem with how 5e treats D&D's rich history of lore, or at least don't agree that 5e is less respectful of lore than past editions. Those views are shaped by different perspectives of what D&D lore is and how immutable it should be.
Thank you! This is what I was trying to say. You have captured the progression of lore across the editions perfectly. For me, 1e and especially 2e was where my love of D&D came from, so their approach is what I treasure (even if it wasn't perfect) and it's official demise saddens me greatly.
 

To expand on this a bit (okay, a lot). If your view of "lore" is that it is primarily the story of the worlds of the D&D cosmology (i.e. metaplot), then there is definitely a thread running from 1e-3e that was broken for 4e and 5e. However, if your view of lore is that it is more the backstories of individual monsters, places and items, then you probably didn't experience quite as much of a disconnect across editions.

The approach to D&D continuity has varied a fair amount across editions.

1st Edition
When the Monster Manual was published there wasn't exactly a lot of existing Basic D&D to be consistent with, but it is worth noting that the B/X and BECMI line of D&D products ran all the way through 1e with no effort made to keep any form of continuity between the lines. Events occurring in one line had no impact on the other, the cosmology and hierarchy of divine beings/immortals was very different. Monsters with the same name had different abilities. The D&D brand was quite happy to have a biversal approach to lore throughout this period with seeming little complaint from customers. Only in the 2e era was the Basic D&D line finally merged into the main D&D line as the world of Mystara.

2nd Edition
This is the edition of the rules that was the most respectful of past lore, typically treating all 1e content as canon, and expanding the cosmology to explain the existence of myriad campaigns worlds, even eventually incorporating Basic D&D/Mystara. In-world reasons were provided for most lore changes resulting from mechanical differences between 1e and 2e. The 2e approach to continuity was additive, avoiding new lore that contradicted existing lore. When 2e did contradict past lore, it was almost always accidentally, and simply because there was so much lore to keep track of.

3rd Edition
This was the first edition that wasn't shy to drop lore that didn't work well mechanically, or which needed streamlining. Overall, 3e tended to be mostly respectful of lore from past core books, fairly respectful to lore from past adventures and supplements and occasionally respectful to lore from D&D magazines and other sources. For 3e, you were less likely to get an in-game reason for changed lore; the approach was typically to pretend that things had simply always been that way. ("Yes, galeb duhr have always had four limbs, why do you ask?") Campaign setting material tended to be compilations, updates and expansions of older sources with a gradual progression of world timelines.

4th Edition
This was the edition by far the least respectful of past lore, entirely by design. Not only did the rules system get a significant overhaul, but the cosmology, origins of the world, and backstories of many creatures were rewritten. This edition took liberties with settings too. The Forgotten Realms had a massive timeline jump and another cataclysmic event. Dark Sun was rebooted back to the beginning of its original timeline. Only Eberron escaped significant change, with 4e keeping the timeline where it was in 3e.

5th Edition
The current version of D&D is respectful of past lore, but ready (sometimes even eager) to ditch anything that gets in the way of modern design goals. 5e draws heavily on all previous editions, but does not further develop the existing timelines of any settings (except vaguely the Forgotten Realms), preferring to reboot (Ravenloft), reset (Planescape, Greyhawk) or selectively reuse (Dragonlance, Spelljammer) settings as seems appropriate to make them accessible to newer D&D players. 5e has probably made the most changes to monster lore within an edition, something which didn't start with the 2024 rules, but goes back to at least Monsters of the Multiverse.


This evolving approach to D&D continuity is complex enough that I have no trouble understanding several seemingly conflicting opinions. I get @Micah Sweet's distress that the story of the D&D cosmology is no longer being told. I understand @the Jester's disdain for mid-edition tweaks to monster classifications. I can also see why many people don't see any problem with how 5e treats D&D's rich history of lore, or at least don't agree that 5e is less respectful of lore than past editions. Those views are shaped by different perspectives of what D&D lore is and how immutable it should be.
Very well put and I heartily agree with the one exception that 2e did change some fundamental (IMO) monster lore. As you mentioned previously the Blood War was a jarring inclusion that simple was not covered in previous monster lore and seemed very out of place when treated like it had always been true.
 

Thank you! This is what I was trying to say. You have captured the progression of lore across the editions perfectly. For me, 1e and especially 2e was where my love of D&D came from, so their approach is what I treasure (even if it wasn't perfect) and it's official demise saddens me greatly.
I agree that was a great post; however, for me 2e did do more harm to lore in my game then good. So I will always give it a suspicious sideways glance when I pass it in the street.
 

Thank you! This is what I was trying to say. You have captured the progression of lore across the editions perfectly. For me, 1e and especially 2e was where my love of D&D came from, so their approach is what I treasure (even if it wasn't perfect) and it's official demise saddens me greatly.
I think people take issue with the notion that there was linear progression that only broke recently. There were all sorts of parallel and contradictory progressions, retcons and reboots, false starts and such along the way. It didn't begin to fracture at Van Richten or 5e or even 4e. It's always had its issues. You were just more tolerant of them when you were a fan and are less tolerant now that you're not.
 

I agree that was a great post; however, for me 2e did do more harm to lore in my game then good. So I will always give it a suspicious sideways glance when I pass it in the street.
To each their own. We always played homebrew, so nothing in the lore affected play for us. Like I said, I enjoyed the story of D&D as a story, and used the game material piecemeal in my homebrew games.
 

I think people take issue with the notion that there was linear progression that only broke recently. There were all sorts of parallel and contradictory progressions, retcons and reboots, false starts and such along the way. It didn't begin to fracture at Van Richten or 5e or even 4e. It's always had its issues. You were just more tolerant of them when you were a fan and are less tolerant now that you're not.
Agree to disagree. I don't see how you can't see VRGtR as more of a change to the story of Ravenloft than previous works, and I explained my position on the matter, point for point, in a previous response to one of your posts. You are the one taking an absolutist position here in so far as what constitutes a significant change (ie, everything as far as I can tell).
 

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