D&D (2024) Help Me Hate Monks (Less Than I Currently Do)

[Shadowdweller00]

It’s not true though. There has never been a requirement that monks should live in a monastery. It’s a false connection, like saying warlocks should be able to pick locks because the word “lock” is in the name.

Monk -

monk
1 of 2
noun (1)
ˈməŋk
Synonyms of monk
: a man who is a member of a religious order and lives in a monastery
also : friar

(in any religion) a man who is a member of a monastic order:
a Buddhist monk.

Just saying...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Monk -


Just saying...

You need to follow up the link to friar. Just saying…

A monastery is a place where some monks live. But many monks do not live in monasteries. Friars are one example. And some of the people who live in monasteries are not monks. And, of course, an overwhelming majority of monks do not practice any sort of martial arts.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of fictional martial arts heroes are not monks (although some may have been trained by monks). Batman, Black Widow, the Third Doctor, even Caine, the original D&D monk, are not actually current members of a religious order.

If you want to know what a monk is in D&D, read the class description. It’s quite clear that there is no requirement for them to be part of a religious order or have ever lived in a monastery. In D&D, the word “monk” means “martial arts hero”.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I was talking about China though. The example was a cowboy with a 6 shooter in a wuxia setting. So my point was you could have that in China or a China analog if it is meant to be something like the late Qing Dynasty (because that goes all the way to 1911).

And sure in earlier periods, diffusion takes time. But you still had the silk road, you still could have one or two stray people from another part of the world. And you did have people travel. There are definitely example of people coming to Song China and earlier periods from great distances. Marco Polo may have been an official in the court of Kublai Khan during the Yuan Dynasty for example. This wuxia film actually gets into that a bit and explores it:
I think in fantasy through a lot more possibilities open up because you have things like portals that might allow better ease of moving goods

the shaw brothers had peter cushing fighting Chinese vampires insane is the way to go.

This is the other dividing line. Some campaigns are more historically realistic in nature some are more genre heavy or kitchen sink. Personally I've never had trouble with the monk being in a fantasy setting. But I think this does come down to the individual world the GM is running. If I am running Ravenloft for example, there are classes and races I might find not fitting. If I am running an ancient roman inspired fantasy world, a musketeer might feel pretty out of place. So I think it is fair if a GM wants some world fidelity around this stuff

true in some campaigns they would not work but in 90% it is unlikely to ever come up.

 

[Voranzovin]

Because I think the styles matter a great deal. I did martial arts and boxing in real life, so when it comes to real life, I agree with you: fighters are martial artists. And I think Bruce Lee would agree with this sentiment as well. but when it comes to genre, there is something fundamentally different about how even mundane hong kong action movies handle combat versus how they were long handled in western fantasy movies (and granted this may be less true today).

I kind of see where you're coming from--I also think that mechanics have a particular feel, and that matching that feel to the fiction matters. It's why I dislike the Artificer so much, since so many of its capabilities are just "you're a Wizard, but you can pretend your spells are something you do with a device I guess."

I think the reason this doesn't bother me in this case is that Dnd combat is already so abstract that the difference seems minimal to me. When a Battlemaster uses Pushing Attack, are they shield rushing their opponent, or are is it a flying kick? Unlike spells (which behave like memorized, fire-and-forget, neo-vancian spells whether you call them something else or not), the mechanics here just don't give you any "feel" to begin with really--you have to provide that yourself anyway. On the other hand, Monks give you a bunch of abilities like Step of the Wind that just don't fit Bruce Lee (or Donnie Yen depending on the role, or Tony Jaa, or Iko Uwais, or Scott Adkins, or any number of other martial arts stars).

 

[Chaltab]

Step of the Wind feels like something out of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, particularly the jump distance being enhanced.

 

[Voranzovin]

I don't necessarily disagree. If you go back and look at the mid-60s to late 60s Wuxia movies, a lot of the swordplay looks a little more like that swashbuckling style, but the action choreography really advances as time goes on

Yeah, and this has always bugged me--there's a wide range of quality in terms of how Asian martial arts are portrayed on screen, but there just aren't a lot of good examples of Western martial arts and swordplay on film (unless you count boxing of course). It's pretty hard for me to think of any western fantasy film that I thought did a good job with portraying hand to hand combat--the only thing that comes immediately to mind is The Witcher, which is both very modern and a TV series. And I'm not in any way a purist. I did a little bit of HEMA in my youth but I'm hardly an expert, and I don't care much about realism anyway. I just want something that's exciting where it looks like the participants are actually trying to kill each other, and fantasy films have largely failed to deliver this for me.

That's probably why my image of how a Fighter fights is more likely to resemble The Raid then it is to resemble any of the films about knights in armor I can recall.

 

[Maxperson]

It’s not true though. There has never been a requirement that monks should live in a monastery. It’s a false connection, like saying warlocks should be able to pick locks because the word “lock” is in the name.

There's no requirement. That's true. However it's also true that the most commonly understood meaning of monk is "guys who live in a monastery." and 5e is supposed to be natural language, right? That's why monks = monastery is so common.

There's also this from the 5e PHB

"The monks who live there seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training. Many entered the monastery as children..."

Many entered "the" monastery. Not "a" monastery. That sentence assumes monks are in monasteries.

Under creating a monk.

"As you make your monk character, think about your connection to the monastery where you learned your skills and spent your formative years."

Thinks about why you are connected to THE monastery. Monastery is all over that section.

5e makes a very solid connection between the two.

 

[Maxperson]

You need to follow up the link to friar. Just saying…

A monastery is a place where some monks live. But many monks do not live in monasteries. Friars are one example. And some of the people who live in monasteries are not monks. And, of course, an overwhelming majority of monks do not practice any sort of martial arts.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of fictional martial arts heroes are not monks (although some may have been trained by monks). Batman, Black Widow, the Third Doctor, even Caine, the original D&D monk, are not actually current members of a religious order.

If you want to know what a monk is in D&D, read the class description. It’s quite clear that there is no requirement for them to be part of a religious order or have ever lived in a monastery. In D&D, the word “monk” means “martial arts hero”.

Friars are members of an order, yes. They are similar to monks, yes. But they are not monks.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There's no requirement. That's true. However it's also true that the most commonly understood meaning of monk is "guys who live in a monastery." and 5e is supposed to be natural language, right? That's why monks = monastery is so common.

There's also this from the 5e PHB

"The monks who live there seek personal perfection through contemplation and rigorous training. Many entered the monastery as children..."

Many entered "the" monastery. Not "a" monastery. That sentence assumes monks are in monasteries.

Under creating a monk.

"As you make your monk character, think about your connection to the monastery where you learned your skills and spent your formative years."

Thinks about why you are connected to THE monastery. Monastery is all over that section.

5e makes a very solid connection between the two.

It is to 5e's detriment that it is that way. The list of options for groups who train in martial arts in an East Asian setting is not just the Shaolin temple. China used to have thousands of small societies based around such things. Japan processed some ninja training villages. I know Korea had something like the Chinese version.

I know India has had fighting monks at several points, and I know Southeast Asia had martial arts, so there is likely some system for passing them down.

I know Africa had several systems (overwatches Doom Fist was derived from one) but I know less about Africa.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How to hate monks less? Ditch the baggage.