D&D (2024) Help Me Hate Monks (Less Than I Currently Do)

[Paul Farquhar]

This is incorrect

I’m not sure what you are saying, but it sounds like “because A and B sometimes overlap, A and B are the same”.

 

[Maxperson]

Speaking seriously, I don't know that this is 100% correct. A player who wants to play a priest will generally build a cleric, but the game doesn't specify that you must. And NPCs are not built like player characters, and, while they may have powers derived from PC class abilities, they do not have levels in that class. In the adventure Princes of the Apocalypse, most of the priests of the Elemental Princes' cults are given powers reminiscent of sorcerers, for example -- Charisma-based spellcasting, a defined list of powers, etc. Therefore, I don't think you can definitively say, "priest and cleric are synonymous." The priest stat block says they have cleric spells, but I can make a bard with cleric spells -- does that make my bard PC a cleric?

Regardless of how NPCs are built, they are that class, even if built differently. That's why when building an NPC priest/cleric, you have multiple ways of doing so, including as an actual PC class. The move away from class levels to just giving the NPC what you need is merely a different way to represent priest/cleric.

The way D&D has historically, and continues to use the term priest, is that all clerics are priests, but not all priests are clerics. Cleric is used as a subset of priest in D&D. That allows for the sorcerer priests in Princes of the Apocalypse.

 

[RealAlHazred]

The way D&D has historically, and continues to use the term priest, is that all clerics are priests, but not all priests are clerics. Cleric is used as a subset of priest in D&D. That allows for the sorcerer priests in Princes of the Apocalypse.

Interestingly, when Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, was building an Eberron artificer for an Eberron game (before either the Eberron books or artificer class were available in 5E) he did it was a cleric, since the cleric abilities fit what he was trying to make his artificer do: a character with support magic, and the ability to use more armor and weapons than a wizard. That character was definitively not a priest, but he was a cleric.

Extra Life: Hacking the Artificer!

I’m in Seattle to chew gum and play D&D, and I’m all out of gum. On Saturday the 25th I’ll be playing D&D with the Wizards of the Coast team in a marathon session to defeat Tiamat and help …

keith-baker.com

 

[Zardnaar]

This is incorrect.

The 5e DMG even shows as an example background, priests of a god who are just beggars supported by the population. No formal religion at all. No temples. Just a bunch of individual beggar priests. Such priests would either come to the religion on their own, or be taught by a single individual.

5e explicitly says priests can be cultists. Cultists who YOU said weren't priests by the real world definition.

"Typical Cultist: Acolyte, archmage, bandit captain, cult fanatic, cultist, knight, noble, priest, spy"

The Kraken Priests in Volo's are not an organized priesthood, but individuals who venerate the kraken and become priests who are clerics.

In 5e druids can come to be druids in a variety of ways, some as individuals with no formal training or religion, and yet druids are considered to be priests of the old faith.

In 2e the category for clerics and druids was priests and every god and their mother had priests, whether they had a formal priesthood or not.

In D&D priest and cleric are synonymous. The D&D definition is different from the real world definition.

Proest there refers to NPC spellcaster in the MM not a RL priest.

 

[TwoSix]

The way D&D has historically, and continues to use the term priest, is that all clerics are priests, but not all priests are clerics. Cleric is used as a subset of priest in D&D. That allows for the sorcerer priests in Princes of the Apocalypse.

That's a fairly complicated relationship.

In a bog-standard D&D fictional setting, yes, I would agree with cleric being a subset of priest. But there are lots of settings that don't hold to classic D&D pantheon ideas, which complicates the usage of the terms.

A further complication is that "cleric" is a metagame term (and has been since 3e), with "priest" being a notable exception as a metagame term during 2e. It's common but far from the norm to assume that metagame terms like class names actually have a fictional setting usage, further complicating the linkage between the metagame "cleric" and in-fiction "priest".

 

[Maxperson]

That's a fairly complicated relationship.

In a bog-standard D&D fictional setting, yes, I would agree with cleric being a subset of priest. But there are lots of settings that don't hold to classic D&D pantheon ideas, which complicates the usage of the terms.

A further complication is that "cleric" is a metagame term (and has been since 3e), with "priest" being a notable exception as a metagame term during 2e. It's common but far from the norm to assume that metagame terms like class names actually have a fictional setting usage, further complicating the linkage between the metagame "cleric" and in-fiction "priest".

Sure. One of the great things about settings is that they can really shake up the lore and alter what means what. When I'm talking, I'm speaking of the default state of the rules. I'm not speaking to individual settings which can of course change everything.

 

[Maxperson]

Interestingly, when Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, was building an Eberron artificer for an Eberron game (before either the Eberron books or artificer class were available in 5E) he did it was a cleric, since the cleric abilities fit what he was trying to make his artificer do: a character with support magic, and the ability to use more armor and weapons than a wizard. That character was definitively not a priest, but he was a cleric.

Extra Life: Hacking the Artificer!

I’m in Seattle to chew gum and play D&D, and I’m all out of gum. On Saturday the 25th I’ll be playing D&D with the Wizards of the Coast team in a marathon session to defeat Tiamat and help …

keith-baker.com

He's reflavoring the cleric class. Once you start reflavoring, you leave the old flavor in the dust. This is similar to settings which can also drastically change flavor. Also like settings, reflavoring isn't how the game uses the terms/classs as the default state, so isn't what I'm talking about here. I'm only speaking to how the default rules treat the class and terms.

 

[Zardnaar]

Think I like Monks more than internet.

They're sort of high skill class though espicially 2014. Mediocre with default array

 

[Zaukrie]

I've come to the conclusion that the monk should be a melee controller. That would give them a role distinct from the barbarian or fighter. Their abilities should be about forced movement and decreasing options for opponents. Yes, they need to do damage, but if we want them to be different than rogues, they need a role....