Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Micah Sweet]

On practical grounds, it makes plenty of sense. It just doesn't fit most people's image of wizard worth a darn.

I suppose, but to me that just another popularity argument.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That all depends on their class and level, but why does that matter?

Because there's a strong counter incentive to either A) Use strongly limited resources on targets you don't need to or B) Stand around and do nothing in a fight, so if the only magical attack someone can use regularly is less effective than a common weapon, many, probably most people are going to use the common weapon.

However long it takes the party to complete their objective, for them to turn back or die. If I'm DMing I'm sure not going to create an adventure/dungeon based on the parties' resources let alone the number of spells they have at their disposal. Resources are up to them to decide where, how and when they are used.

Why should it be any different now?

My point is that the presence of a reusable spell with about the punch of a crossbow, nor the lack of need for torches isn't going to be the primary controller of that anyway. Like I said, spell slots and hit points have always been the coin of the realm there.

 

[Micah Sweet]

We're well past the days most people are going to, however.

Plenty of OSR games have humanoid species that aren't on the PC list. I hardly think it's out of the question.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My suggestion is, however, that even at the start of the hobby, those limited resources were a whole lot more about spell slots and hit points than how many torches someone had.

In the class descriptions, maybe, but there was a lot more to the game than that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If your image of "magic user" doesn't involve a guy hiding in the back throwing short javelins, well, yes.

To each their own. A shame the current game doesn't allow for both conceptions without obviously favoring unlimited cantrips, but at least there are other D&D-style games for that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I suppose, but to me that just another popularity argument.

I just have to note if your response is "Why should I care what other people want?" why shouldn't their response be "Why should I care what you want?"

You really need to get used to the idea the biggest games here aren't going to be aimed at your tastes when they're off the beaten path here, man, and the fact yours are what was closer to common at one time isn't going to change that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

To each their own. A shame the current game doesn't allow for both conceptions without obviously favoring unlimited cantrips, but at least there are other D&D-style games for that.

Its hard to see how you could have it work both ways as a default.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Nobody said a dungeon MUST be dark, but losing darkness as a design tool is like…what?… no traps? No treasure? No secret doors? You “can” also design dungeons without those things. But their absence would be a loss.

I'd argue that the well-lit Backrooms is one of the best megadungeons of all time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I just have to note if your response is "Why should I care what other people want?" why shouldn't their response be "Why should I care what you want?"

You really need to get used to the idea the biggest games here aren't going to be aimed at your tastes when they're off the beaten path here, man, and the fact yours are what was closer to common at one time isn't going to change that.

I do accept that. I just don't see any value in talking about how many people prefer one playstyle over another. All it does is present a false sense of value.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In the class descriptions, maybe, but there was a lot more to the game than that.

I'm not talking about class descriptions. I'm talking about the way I saw it play out in games in 1975 on until I bailed out of D&D. Light was just never the biggest limiting resource because it was too cheap to come by. The only thing you couldn't primarily address by throwing money at it was hit points and spell slots, so that was, in the end, what really mattered the vast majority of the time.