D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Geminisaga777]

Yes but if one of the PCs cannot die each round the fight is a complete formality and over before it begins.



Agreed.



If I was designing the basics, off the top of my head:

ACTIONS
2 x Claw: 52 (12d6 +10) slashing, maximum damage (changed to bludgeoning) vs. a Prone Target
Bite: 88 (12d12 +10) slashing, plus thrown or grabbed. Bit adds +27 (6d8) fire damage the round after it has used its fire breath.

or

Fire Breath: 145 (30d8) fire; save for half; failure adds the burning condition

REACTIONS (Reacting to a Specific PC's turn)
Spell: Chooses one of its spells (Guiding Bolt lets say): 24 (7d6) radiant, plus Blinded until end of next turn
Sulfurous Snort: 21 (6d6) poison (fireball size area), save for half or also poisoned (weakened) save ends. Poison cloud lingers until end of the dragon's next turn.
Tail Sweep: 37 (6d8 +10) bludgeoning (30' cone), plus DEX save or knocked prone
Wing Buffet: 25 (6d4+10) bludgeoning, plus CON save or Blinded condition (save ends)

Edit: I fixed the claw damage, should be d6's, not d4's.

Por

 

[Upper_Krust]

Okay so now we have seen the entire stat-block what does everyone think? I think now that we have seen Banish is 3-4 times per round with a DC 24 Charisma save the dragon has went from vastly under-powered to probably overpowered and broken. Unless your group features a Bard, a Paladin a Sorcerer and a Warlock that save DC is a 1 in 20 (even then assuming your GM uses 20 is always a save).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Inspiration might not help you at all.

You do not get to add proficiency to initiative naturally, you get your dex mod. Even a Rogue with a +5 is incapable of going before the dragon if the dragon rolls a 10 and gets a total of 26. Because you cannot crit initiative per the rules, so they max at 25.

I really think people are underestimating how game changing expertise in initiative is.

You could still have the Alert feat, but I agree its a crazy high Initiative. But all that pales by comparison with Banish.

It doesn't need to sneak up on them. Heck, since surprise is just disadvantage at Initiative, the PARTY could sneak up on the dragon, and it is still likely to act before any of them. And it doesn't need to drop the wizard in the first move, because it still has legendary actions.

Now that I have seen the full stat-block, all it needs is to use Banish each Legendary Action and it probably wins.

You keep acting like the cleric being able to spend their entire turn on damage control, instead on trying to take out the dragon, is somehow a death sentence for the dragon. Sure, Heal the wizard, that means you didn't do anything else. Like heal yourself.

Even an upcast Healing Word will undo the damage from the Fire Breath on a passed save.

Okay? We are talking anywhere between just using its legendary actions and one turn. That isn't "ignoring" anyone in any meaningful degree.

Its a moot point now, Banish with a DC 24 CHA save, 3-4 times per round is an Auto-win for the dragon. Without specific prep against Banish the Party should be defeated.

This really is starting to feel more like "I can't think of a way to dismiss this". There is counter-play to high DC abilities like Banishment. And it can only effect one creature at a time.

It gets to use it 3-4 times per round. Its virtually unpassable for 2/3rds of character classes and a hard DC for the other 4 classes.

What do you mean by exact same CR? Obviously it will be harder, but also that doesn't mean it becomes CR 25.

Its a +67% increase in Hit Points - OF COURSE IT AFFECTS ITS CHALLENGE RATING!

And the new ones have been massively improved by what I've seen of other monsters.

Under the current (broken) saving throw system that Banish from the gold Dragon is 100% insane.

Nothing? We have very different definitions of nothing. We are talking close to 1/5 of their health.

So by definition its lost "A FRACTION" of its health.

 

[Sulicius]

Okay so now we have seen the entire stat-block what does everyone think? I think now that we have seen Banish is 3-4 times per round with a DC 24 Charisma save the dragon has went from vastly under-powered to probably overpowered and broken. Unless your group features a Bard, a Paladin a Sorcerer and a Warlock that save DC is a 1 in 20 (even then assuming your GM uses 20 is always a save).

Banishment can only be used once per round.

It looks nice. I don't think it can challenge a full lvl20 party, but nice.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Banishment can only be used once per round.

It looks nice. I don't think it can challenge a full lvl20 party, but nice.

A lot depends were the banished character returns too. If the dragon has an escape proof cell or a pit of certain death in it's lair it can effectively automatically neutralise one character per round (it makes no mention of line of sight). Which means the dragon wins by default in 4 rounds (CR calculations assume a party of four).

A larger party of lower level have a better chance in this situation.

 

[Sulicius]

A lot depends were the banished character returns too. If the dragon has an escape proof cell or a pit of certain death in it's lair it can effectively automatically neutralise one character per round (it makes no mention of line of sight). Which means the dragon wins by default in 4 rounds (CR calculations assume a party of four).

A larger party of lower level have a better chance in this situation.

Hmm, characters teleport around a lot and don't tend to instantly die at tier 4.

I'm gonna test him out this saturday in the Red Dragon lair from Fizban's against a lvl16 party.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Banishment can only be used once per round.

Not sure how I missed that...I'll play the "I was just out of bed" card.

It looks nice. I don't think it can challenge a full lvl20 party, but nice.

It can still Banish 1 character per round with what seems to be an auto success (unless its against a Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer or Warlock...who have around a 25-40% chance of success).

If everything lands it deals:

3 attacks = 88 + Banish + 2 attacks 56 HP damage
Lair 3 attacks = 88 + Banish + 3 attacks 88 HP damage

R1: Fire Breath: Rogue Dodges, Fighter saves, Both casters fail but Wizard uses Absorb Elements for 35 damage, Cleric takes 71 (and will Bonus Action healing Word).

• Rogue (invisible), sneak attacks...lets say 50 damage and Hides....Dragon Banishes the Fighter
• Wizard drops an icy (element swapped) Meteor Swarm, dragon saves, takes 70 damage...then uses a Guided Bolt on the Wizard, 27 damage.
• Cleric Heals the Wizard and Bonus Action Healing Word to self...then takes a Guided Bolt for 27 damage.

R2: Dragon full attack on the Wizard, drops the Wizard.

- Rogue sneak attacks...lets say 50 damage and Hides....Dragon Banishes the Cleric.

R3: Dragon full attack on the Rogue, lets say 50% chance of hitting. 44 damage.

- Rogue sneak attacks...lets say 50 damage and Hides...Rend +14 (lets say with chance of missing)

R4+ Dragon probably needs 1-2 more rounds to kill the Rogue. Rogue needs another 6-7 to defeat the Dragon.

Obviously there are myriad other options for all the classes (many of which I am no expert in) but being able to auto-banish the biggest threat each round seems like there is no way to fairly defeat the Gold Dragon.

With prep, obviously its doable, but the Banish is just too effective.

IMHO, a badly designed, uninteresting Monster battle that is simply going to annoy and frustrate Players.

• None of the attacks really combo with each other
• Strategically 'use Banish' outshines everything else by a country mile
• Crit damage is irrelevant (nearly all attacks do the same damage) - there's no "...well you certainly don't want this Bite to Crit!"
• No need to use Weakening Breath until you are 1 vs 1 with a Fighter...which would be against the Fighter's best save.

In fact looking at the battle I suspect the Dragon would have a harder time going toe-to-toe with a single Level 20 Fighter (without using Banish) than it would a Level 20 Party of Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard (where it does use Banish).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Crit damage is irrelevant (nearly all attacks do the same damage) - there's no "...well you certainly don't want this Bite to Crit!"

Good thing. Combat should be about tactics, not luck.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ran a loose mock-up of the Dragon 1 vs. 1 against my Level 20 Fighter (back before he gained the Epic Boons and the Blaster Rifle)/Powered Armour).

Fighter was AC 28 and has a +1 Sword that deals +2d6 vs. Spellcasters and Spellcasting Creatures. 20 Str, 20 Con with Luck and Toughness feats, 267 HP (IIRC).

So with +12 he hits the dragon on a 10, Battlemaster gives him 6 additions of +d12 on to hit rolls, + 3 uses of Luck (normally used to get the enemy to reroll a crit).

For simplicity I'll ignore Crits (even though they favour the Fighter when he Action Surges in the first two rounds, though the dragon does higher damage per hit, so they favour it in the long run).

Fighter hits on a 10, Dragon on 11, 55% and 50%. Both get 4 attacks per round (4 Rends for the Dragon the latter with a Legendary Action). Fighter Action Surges rounds 1-2 and lets say uses Battlemaster and Luck so he likely hits 8 out of the the first nine misses.

Dragon: R1: 56 dmg, R2: +56 (112 - 25 Second Wind = 87), R3 +56 (143), R4 +56 (199), r5 +56 (255)...R6 Dragon wins.

Fighter: R1: 140 dmg, R2: 140 dmg (280), R3: 38.5 dmg (318), R4 38.5 dmg (357), R5 +38.5 dmg (395)...R9 Fighter wins.

Maybe not as close as I suspected although the Dragon's Blindsight negated the usual Cloak of Displacement option (swapped out for a Cloak of Resistance here) - had that worked I think the Dragon needs 11 rounds to win (on average).

However, this lone Fighter deals 395 damage which is probably more than the Cleric + Fighter + Rogue + Wizard do combined if the Dragon is using Banish.

 

[Sulicius]

Ran a loose mock-up of the Dragon 1 vs. 1 against my Level 20 Fighter (back before he gained the Epic Boons and the Blaster Rifle)/Powered Armour).

Fighter was AC 28 and has a +1 Sword that deals +2d6 vs. Spellcasters and Spellcasting Creatures. 20 Str, 20 Con with Luck and Toughness feats, 267 HP (IIRC).

So with +12 he hits the dragon on a 10, Battlemaster gives him 6 additions of +d12 on to hit rolls, + 3 uses of Luck (normally used to get the enemy to reroll a crit).

For simplicity I'll ignore Crits (even though they favour the Fighter when he Action Surges in the first two rounds, though the dragon does higher damage per hit, so they favour it in the long run).

Fighter hits on a 10, Dragon on 11, 55% and 50%. Both get 4 attacks per round (4 Rends for the Dragon the latter with a Legendary Action). Fighter Action Surges rounds 1-2 and lets say uses Battlemaster and Luck so he likely hits 8 out of the the first nine misses.

Dragon: R1: 56 dmg, R2: +56 (112 - 25 Second Wind = 87), R3 +56 (143), R4 +56 (199), r5 +56 (255)...R6 Dragon wins.

Fighter: R1: 140 dmg, R2: 140 dmg (280), R3: 38.5 dmg (318), R4 38.5 dmg (357), R5 +38.5 dmg (395)...R9 Fighter wins.

Maybe not as close as I suspected although the Dragon's Blindsight negated the usual Cloak of Displacement option (swapped out for a Cloak of Resistance here) - had that worked I think the Dragon needs 11 rounds to win (on average).

However, this lone Fighter deals 395 damage which is probably more than the Cleric + Fighter + Rogue + Wizard do combined if the Dragon is using Banish.

I mean, if you fight in the best way for a fighter to fight it, sure. But the dragon can use its reach. Maybe try a sharpshooter build.