D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I wonder why they chose to forgo that and cram so much other "easy to calculate" math into the stat block. These statblocks are crammed with easy to calculate and redundant information. It seems so arbitrary to exclude this. Almost like it was a mistake.

I think it might have just been an oversight they didn’t notice.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I wonder why they chose to forgo that and cram so much other "easy to calculate" math into the stat block. These statblocks are crammed with easy to calculate and redundant information. It seems so arbitrary to exclude this. Almost like it was a mistake.

No objection there.

There was enough space to just write it into the spell.

Empyrean still lists it.

Probably someone thought guiding bold has a save instead of spell attack.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes. Banish is way more nasty than before (DC 9 higher).
But to be honest, at that point you want to be able to fly when fighting a dragon anyway. A fighter has a quasi legendary resistance too. A paladin has their aura. Mage slayer helps. So overall, I guess that it is manageable for the average level 20 party.

Cleric steps up. Divine Intervention, casts Hallow as an action.... no banishment allowed. Or a wish, using the clause "You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours". Or heck, the Wizard attacks the dragon by itself with invulnerability....and just pounds it with Int saves until it finally gets through the resistance, than maybe brings the rest of the group in as the duration starts to drop.

20th level parties have LOTS of tricks up their sleeves.


that said, I do like that the banishment move effectively lets the DM ramp up the damage as they see fit. You want a bit more pain, maybe you drop them in midair, or onto a bed of steaming hot gold. Want to go for the ultimate in deadly encounter, every banish drops them into lava.

 

[ECMO3]

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

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Is Dragon fear no longer a thing? Don't Gold Dragons normally have two breath weapons?

Not liking these changes, feels like they are removing flavor and replacing it with math.

 

[Stalker0]

Is Dragon fear no longer a thing? Don't Gold Dragons normally have two breath weapons?

Not liking these changes, feels like they are removing flavor and replacing it with math.

they said they are keeping the fear on specific dragons but not all. so its a way to further differentiate the colors. Now the gold will actually use its two breath weapons, rather than having them but never actually getting to use them in most fights.

 

[dave2008]

Is Dragon fear no longer a thing? Don't Gold Dragons normally have two breath weapons?

Not liking these changes, feels like they are removing flavor and replacing it with math.

What is in the OP is not the whole stat block. You can see the whole stat block here (and on Beyond): Ancient Gold Dragon

But to answer your issues:

1. Fear is still a thing, but not for the gold dragon. They explain this in the dragon video.
2. Gold dragons do still have two breath weapons. The weakening breath it can use every round, but the fire breath is still a recharge.
3. It gets some other nice surprises, go check out the stat block (still needs improvement IMO

 

[Chaosmancer]

Actually HP is the primary driver of CR. What is your logic for suggesting otherwise?

It was either a sage advice or an interview, been years so I don't remember the source.

Purely logic wise, you have to remember that feats and magic items are generally not considered, but do typically exist. That might change in 2024 assumptions, but in 2014 it was clearly not considered, leaving many high CR monsters capable of being one-shot when they were not supposed to be. Hence, increasing the HP did not increase their CR.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If I was always going into a fight where Initiative Order was important I'd typically use Inspiration on the roll. If there is a Rogue in the group they'll probably still win.

Inspiration might not help you at all. You do not get to add proficiency to initiative naturally, you get your dex mod. Even a Rogue with a +5 is incapable of going before the dragon if the dragon rolls a 10 and gets a total of 26. Because you cannot crit initiative per the rules, so they max at 25.

I really think people are underestimating how game changing expertise in initiative is.

We are assuming the dragon largely 'sneaks up on them'. But even if it does, Rogue likely saves, Fighter doesn't care, Cleric and Wizard can Absorb Elements or some other spell or magic item to mitigate the fire damage.

The damage is decent against the wizard but on average does not drop even the weakest character.

It doesn't need to sneak up on them. Heck, since surprise is just disadvantage at Initiative, the PARTY could sneak up on the dragon, and it is still likely to act before any of them. And it doesn't need to drop the wizard in the first move, because it still has legendary actions.

Even a Heal undoes the entire damage on one character, in fact an upcast Healing Word might undo allf the damage on a save.

The Wizard is the only character the Dragon can likely drop in the first round (and then using up most of its attacks), the Cleric will likely be able to keep the Wizard up.

You keep acting like the cleric being able to spend their entire turn on damage control, instead on trying to take out the dragon, is somehow a death sentence for the dragon. Sure, Heal the wizard, that means you didn't do anything else. Like heal yourself.

If it concentrates on the Wizard then it is ignoring the other characters.

Okay? We are talking anywhere between just using its legendary actions and one turn. That isn't "ignoring" anyone in any meaningful degree.

I disagree, Defeating a character with high damage numbers is always the fairest way of beating them (because they have more ways 'out'), compared to having to make a very high d20 roll which is basically what the Banish is imposing upon the majority of characters.

This really is starting to feel more like "I can't think of a way to dismiss this". There is counter-play to high DC abilities like Banishment. And it can only effect one creature at a time.

Okay so is the dragon with 812 HP the exact same CR as the dragon with 546 HP...in your opinion?

What do you mean by exact same CR? Obviously it will be harder, but also that doesn't mean it becomes CR 25.

The previous Legendary Actions were largely irrelevant.

2014 Lair Actions:

1. Dragon has advantage on rolls for 1 round.
2. Banish (DC 15)

And the new ones have been massively improved by what I've seen of other monsters.

The damage is nothing to the fighter, the Rogue saves for no damage. Maybe the Cleric or Wizard use Absorb Elements.

Nothing? We have very different definitions of nothing. We are talking close to 1/5 of their health.

 

[dave2008]

It was either a sage advice or an interview, been years so I don't remember the source.

Purely logic wise, you have to remember that feats and magic items are generally not considered, but do typically exist. That might change in 2024 assumptions, but in 2014 it was clearly not considered, leaving many high CR monsters capable of being one-shot when they were not supposed to be. Hence, increasing the HP did not increase their CR.

I mean as DM fiat that is fine, but as a design choice - no, absolutely no

 

[ECMO3]

I really think people are underestimating how game changing expertise in initiative is.

I think a +5 in initiative is equivalent to a 20% increase in DPR for a martial/damage dealer or for a controller equivalent to about +2 in DC.