D&D 5E (2014) What high-level spells could warp society?

[TwoSix]

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For a 2,000,000 population, that matches my numbers, yep.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The 'everyone can go to wizard school' idea is a bit silly;' it's like saying everyone can just be a successful CEO or get an PhD in Aerospace Engineering. 'Going to wizard school' should be like pursuing a degree in high-level theoretical physics - a vanishing small percentage of the population are capable of handling it even if they want to do so.

This is one reason I liked and still use the old rule of 'you can learn spells up to the limit of your INT'; most people would have a 10 or 11 INT and thus no matter how much they studied, they'd never be able to comprehend more than cantrips or first level spells. Almost no-one would ever be able to master 9th level spells, ever. A handful of people in the world, perhaps, and they're still bound by how many times you can do that per day.

Things like Cure Wounds and Create Food and Water are not learned - they are granted by gods to their favored servants. You can study all you want and you'll never cure a single hit point. So the supply of medical magic is likely very, very limited and sometimes simply doesn't work at all if the god doesn't want it to work.

For 'wizard school' to be the equivalent of going for your PhD... that only makes sense if there was also Master's, Bachelor's, high school, and primary schooling available for citizens, in order to discover which people were able to go on for their doctorates. But I don't see any medieval fantasy settings except for Eberron have anything even close to resembling the leveled schooling necessary to "find" the students able to go on to Wizard School if Wizard School was really as tough as you suggest.

How would anyone even know that they could become wizards if it was the equivalent of a PhD program? Just random guessing? "You know... I'm just a local farmer and I've never actually been to school before... but I just KNOW I have the aptitude to learn how to be a Wizard! Let me cut straight to the PhD program and get started! Where's the local wizard and let him take a look at me!"

No. If learning 1st level arcane magic was really that difficult-- that only the select few could even start to do it-- society would have designed and put into place a whole system of schooling (just like we in the real world have) in order to find and prove which students actually could become wizards. The world would have learned long ago the need to separate the wheat from the metric tons of chaff and how best to do it.

Look... if some people really want to believe that a world that has the "tech level" of 7th, 8th and 9th level magic would actually remain stuck in a faux-medieval world for tens of thousands of years... go nuts. They aren't even advancing and progressing from Ancient Greece tech levels -to- Medieval tech levels over those millennia... but a place like Faerun remaining stuck JUST in medieval tech that entire time. To me that is patently ridiculous and I have no problem pointing that out. Yeah, it makes for really lovely 'knights and fairies' entertainment and stories... but absolutely wretched anthropology.

 

[TwoSix]

No. If learning 1st level arcane magic was really that difficult-- that only the select few could even start to do it-- society would have designed and put into place a whole system of schooling (just like we in the real world have) in order to find and prove which students actually could become wizards. The world would have learned long ago the need to separate the wheat from the metric tons of chaff and how best to do it.

Look... if some people really want to believe that a world that has the "tech level" of 7th, 8th and 9th level magic would actually remain stuck in a faux-medieval world for tens of thousands of years... go nuts. They aren't even advancing and progressing from Ancient Greece tech levels -to- Medieval tech levels over those millennia... but a place like Faerun remaining stuck JUST in medieval tech that entire time. To me that is patently ridiculous and I have no problem pointing that out. Yeah, it makes for really lovely 'knights and fairies' entertainment and stories... but absolutely wretched anthropology.

I don't agree with this. Just because a few people gain the ability to cast high level spells, doesn't mean that the cultures they live in are suddenly Enlightment-era societies capable of rapid dissemination of information within the culture.

The fact that development from the Medieval to the modern day wasn't anything like an obvious and natural evolution; it was just as much luck and circumstance. In a world with low population density, threatened by monster attacks and malicious deific influence (not to mention fluctuating magical potential as I mentioned in an earlier post), rationalizing a LACK of development despite magic existing is an easy feat.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't agree with this. Just because a few people gain the ability to cast high level spells, doesn't mean that the cultures they live in are suddenly Enlightment-era societies capable of rapid dissemination of information within the culture.

Who said 'suddenly'? Faerun has had more than 10,000 YEARS to find Enlightenment. All while having the knowledge that Wishes, Controlling the Weather, Mass Healing, the instantaneous Fabrication of anything with the proper raw materials, Regeneration, planar travel, and True Resurrection were possible if you just really applied yourself. And virtually no one has done jack with that knowledge.

If you wish to buy that, go ahead. I think it's ridiculous.

 

[TwoSix]

Who said 'suddenly'? Faerun has had more than 10,000 YEARS to find Enlightenment. All while having the knowledge that Wishes, Controlling the Weather, Mass Healing, the instantaneous Fabrication of anything with the proper raw materials, Regeneration, planar travel, and True Resurrection were possible if you just really applied yourself. And virtually no one has done jack with that knowledge.

If you wish to buy that, go ahead. I think it's ridiculous.

To be fair, assuming that anyone can cast those spells is a large setting assumption.

When I'm analyzing settings, I tend to take them as they're presented; if something doesn't match my "like Earth" assumptions, I prefer to think of rationalizations for why things are the way they are.

Realizing "medieval setting" plus "repeatable, learnable magic" would lead to "magical Industrial Revolution" was pretty obvious reading those settings 30+ years ago; it's far more compelling (to me) to think of reasons that maintain the game fiction without breaking plausibility.

But that's getting pretty far afield from the OP.

 

[Micah Sweet]

To be fair, assuming that anyone can cast those spells is a large setting assumption.

When I'm analyzing settings, I tend to take them as they're presented; if something doesn't match my "like Earth" assumptions, I prefer to think of rationalizations for why things are the way they are.

Realizing "medieval setting" plus "repeatable, learnable magic" would lead to "magical Industrial Revolution" was pretty obvious reading those settings 30+ years ago; it's far more compelling (to me) to think of reasons that maintain the game fiction without breaking plausibility.

But that's getting pretty far afield from the OP.

That is a fun thought experiment. How would the standard fantasy setting make any amount of sense?

 

[Stalker0]

This is one reason I liked and still use the old rule of 'you can learn spells up to the limit of your INT'; most people would have a 10 or 11 INT and thus no matter how much they studied, they'd never be able to comprehend more than cantrips or first level spells. Almost no-one would ever be able to master 9th level spells, ever. A handful of people in the world, perhaps, and they're still bound by how many times you can do that per day.

Yep, one of the simplest ways to enforce the "high levle magic is super rare" in a world.

And its similar to professional sports in real life. Talent can get you far in sports, hard work can get you far, but to get to the top levels of a sport....you need a lot of both. Same with magic, you can be the most experienced adventurer that ever did adventure, but at a certain point it takes a raw natural intelligence to grasp the concepts of high level magic.

 

[Stalker0]

if your interested, I took a crack at making a demographic excel several years ago, so you can tweak and see exactly how many people of each class and level you would have for various populations and assumed demographics.

D&D 5E (2014) - Dnd World Demographics Excel Tool - Rarity of Classes and Spells

So a question that often pops up when considering a dnd world is: How rare are adventurers? How easy it it to get access to a 4th level spell? Would casters producing 3rd level magic own the economy of this world? DMs for the most part handwave these questions, which is fine in the vast...

www.enworld.org

 

[Baron Opal II]

So, I'm wondering, if a fair number of people have consistent access to 9th level magic, what sort of implications would that have for how "adventurer society" acts?

Assuming that spells of 3rd level and below are "common" as well as 20th level characters being, say, 0.1% of the population, I would envision significant vertical urban centers. Many of the taller buildings would be constructed as exotic as possible to demonstrate strength, durability, utility, and aesthetics. In significant capitals and trade centers would have the most dramatic designs (c.f. Hong Kong architecture competition). These capitals would also have elite access teleport centers. The teleport grid would be heavily utilized for anyone of significance. You might need to have some quality marking you as 9th level or higher, but I can see there being a key, ring, or some other item that allows access even for non-spellcasters. I can see this becoming similar in commonality as air travel.

If purify food and drink doesn't allow for desalination, surely a bound water elemental would suffice. A 12th level caster can cast planar binding for a month's duration. That would be sufficient for the crew's water needs, particularly with another water or air elemental providing propulsion. This could easily be as quick as second generation steamships, taking less than two weeks to cross the Atlantic Ocean. Bind a lillend or a djinn and you have a cruise ship with food and entertainment.

Rural areas would be more expansive and heavily managed. As mentioned earlier, currently available cantrips and 1st level magician spells replicate tractors efficiently. Tamed ankhegs are living plows, and orchards can be easily managed to high productivity with persuaded dryads and/or treants. Livestock can be similarly managed with fauns. The hauling of produce, ore, or refined materials I can see by golem hauled wagons, reinforced with steel to allow even greater amounts of cargo. If the teleport network is air travel, this would be rail. Slower, but quite steady.

You're going to need that extra food because your infant mortality rate will plummet. Between cure wounds and lesser restoration, 1st and 2nd level spells now, childhood maladies and accidents can be easily managed. Even working accidents among adults should be manageable as long as they aren't short-term fatal. Woodsman Eugene need not be as careful with his axe. Only magical plagues would be of concern. The first appearance of the Red Death would be terrifying as lower level clerics were powerless, but it would be contained in a straight-forward manner when the hierophants and archmages became involved.

Monstrous issues would be relatively contained outside of political borders. The lords of the nation (fighter, rangers, et al.) Would at least push such creatures to roam outside the borders. This could lead to strategic wilds; geopolitical "border states" where the fiercest beats roam. Agile fighters and rogues perform spycraft to discover tactical and strategic intelligence, with the occasional assassination of prominent merchant, noble, or sage.

Magic items would only be linearly more prevalent, not geometric or exponential. All of the main function of spells is based on duration, even those that rely on summoned assistance. The enchantment of magic items is a craft, and can not be industrialized. It still takes a living mind to create a +1 sword. This is not something that can be generated en masse; you can figure out how to make lace through water mills and automated looms, but the binding of magic can't be so generalized.

Wish is not as amazing as it might seem at first. While the price was rough in earlier editions (5 years of life), now the cost to wish is meaningless. Unless, of course, you are doing something other than mimicking a spell. While there is still a relatively minimal cost, odds are any particular magician is only going to be able to be inventive with the spell twice in their lifetime. While I generally dislike to consider personalities in these thought experiments, here I believe it matters. I find it difficult to imagine any 20th level character, but most especially a wizard, sacrificing great power for society, or even mere wealth. I can only imagine that it will be saved to the benefit of themselves or their friends and family.

I think there would be societal advancement along an Industrial Revolution track, but limited. The greatest of innovators are at the very top, and not facilitating further advancement among their lessers. Usually, I argue against the stifling of technological advancement with strong magical advancement because of the craftsman requirements that magic imposes. The peasantry aren't going to be able to call on their own earth elemental, so they will need to (eventually) discover principles and inventions that allow them to achieve the same goals. Magic becomes the tool of the elites, and technology the tool of the masses. Here, however, if magic is common at all strata, and the highest level are very high indeed, I think you end up with a Victorian England society in the vein of The Amulet of Samarkand, by Jonathan Stroud. In these stories, the elites are the magicians whose only power is the binding of "demons". Their magic items are tools that have these entities bound within them, called upon to exercise their powers on demand.

 

[TwoSix]

if your interested, I took a crack at making a demographic excel several years ago, so you can tweak and see exactly how many people of each class and level you would have for various populations and assumed demographics.

D&D 5E (2014) - Dnd World Demographics Excel Tool - Rarity of Classes and Spells

So a question that often pops up when considering a dnd world is: How rare are adventurers? How easy it it to get access to a 4th level spell? Would casters producing 3rd level magic own the economy of this world? DMs for the most part handwave these questions, which is fine in the vast...

www.enworld.org

I’m taking a look at this tonight, thanks.