The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[payn]

if it was branded D&D tactics it would never reached the same sales numbers. This is just not feasible to have more than 1 edition at the time and non main line products just never sell as much as mainline products. Even the final fantasy MMOs are numbered like main line final fantasy games for this reason.



Why would you, if you dont like the new product and thus dont play it, complain about it? Just play something else. You saw it was not made for you so the logical step is to accept this and play something else. It is not like people came to your house and burn your old D&D books.

And its not that you would like a version of the game made for you even with some slight changes (thats why Essentials did not work).

It's cultural. Winning the "D&D is designed the way I like" sweepstakes is an enviable trophy.

 

[billd91]

if it was branded D&D tactics it would never reached the same sales numbers. This is just not feasible to have more than 1 edition at the time and non main line products just never sell as much as mainline products. Even the final fantasy MMOs are numbered like main line final fantasy games for this reason.



Why would you, if you dont like the new product and thus dont play it, complain about it? Just play something else. You saw it was not made for you so the logical step is to accept this and play something else. It is not like people came to your house and burn your old D&D books.

And its not that you would like a version of the game made for you even with some slight changes (thats why Essentials did not work).

Ultimately, for the same reasons 4e branded as D&D Tactics wouldn't have reached the same sales number. There's value in the brand identity in driving sales and recruiting players and, on top of that, there's an emotional component to being a fan of the game and its brand. Like with New Coke, you make a new version that chafes with the prior branding, even if the new version has some of its own merits, and you may encounter a backlash.
It's kind of hard to argue that people who had been followers of the brand should just go play something else while arguing that a deviation from brand needs to occupy it without the opposite argument having a similarly strong validity.

 

[Joshua Randall]

This is the primary reason I hated 4e.

Sorry to hear that.

It took the d20 gameplay style elements I disliked and amped them through the roof.

Sorry to hear that. But why are you posting here, then? Can you leave us in peace to eat our weird licorice in the corner? No? You HAD TO stop by to tell us how much you hate our licorice? Well, cool, man. Rock on with your bad self.

It decided that a specific style of play was valid and ignored the rest.

Yes, exactly.

It was one of the first “we want a different audience

Yes.

that we think will be larger” attempts.

It was, in fact, smaller.

So what? Size of audience is irrelevant to how good a game is.

Honestly, though, I wish they’d branded it D&D Tactics and supported it as a derivative product.

Edition war detected.

4e isn't the D&D for me, but I respect that there are a lot of people that love it, and I admire the design choices and chances it took

That is all I ask, Snarf, all I freakin' ask. But nope, literally within minutes of you posting this we've had another flare of up of 4e hatred.

As an aside, I do think that there is something about the specificity of 4e. I have long said that specific rules have great advantages;

"System matters", to coin a phrase.

In fairness, I am assuming that the toxicity went both ways.

That anti-4e toxicity was far, far, FAR worse than the relatively tame and IMO understandable "if you don't like 4e, get out" talk or "toxicity" if you prefer.

4e side: "If you don't like our game, don't let the door hit you on the way out."
anti-4e side: coming up on 20 years of aggressive hatred

just trying to be nice to each other regardless of gaming preferences.

Only someone who doesn't worship the ground 4e walks on could possibly be so foolish!

Except bards. I've met pro- and anti-4e people that I can respect, but I never met a bard that didn't need killin'.

I'm with you there. Down with bards! (Even though it was a pretty OK class in 4e.)

Maximizing profit to support the demands of shareholders? Unnecessary.

Sure, I assume you grow all your own food and generate your own power, too?

if you dont like the new product and thus dont play it, complain about it? Just play something else.

But Tigris, how can he let us know how superior he is, if he doesn't belittle our choice of games?

It's cultural. Winning the "D&D is designed the way I like" sweepstakes is an enviable trophy.

Amen, brother!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, I assume you grow all your own food and generate your own power, too?

Yeah, because those are clearly the only two options.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Yeah, because those are clearly the only two options.

I'm not the one complaining about capitalism in a thread about 4e, while using electricity, clothing, food, vehicles, etc. etc. that was ALMOST CERTAINLY sold by a for-profit company.

Most people who say that for-profit is always bad are flagrant hypocrites. I'm not saying that you, personally, are (I don't know you and frankly, I don't care), but... seriously why, dude? Why is this even a topic here? You didn't think that edition war 2025 was fun enough?

 

[Tigris]

Ultimately, for the same reasons 4e branded as D&D Tactics wouldn't have reached the same sales number. There's value in the brand identity in driving sales and recruiting players and, on top of that, there's an emotional component to being a fan of the game and its brand. Like with New Coke, you make a new version that chafes with the prior branding, even if the new version has some of its own merits, and you may encounter a backlash.
It's kind of hard to argue that people who had been followers of the brand should just go play something else while arguing that a deviation from brand needs to occupy it without the opposite argument having a similarly strong validity.

Well I may just not understand this "being a fan" thing in the first place. Or following a brand, especially when you can just still play the old thing. There are so many things I stopped playing eating etc. after it changed.


But I also never considered me a "fan" of anything. Find the concept silly/irrational.


I also LOVE change. I want NEW GAMEDESIGN. And even as much as I love 4E and wished D&D 6E would be like 4E, I would even more love it, if it was something completly else than any D&D before.


I love that Zelda Breath of the Wind was something completly different, even though its not for me.


Thats the one thing I like least in RPGs that stuff is just repeated most of the time instead of trying to do something completly new....


Having said that I would still like a rerelease of 4E although I am really not sure what it should do:

• Try to show more people how good it is?
• Be basically 4E just slightly refined?
• Or be a new D&D version based on 4E?

Because thats for me all kinda different things although 1 and 3 could be combined of course.


EDIT: I would honestly also prefer if WotC would be a private company like steam, and not publicly owned but well not something one can change easily.

 

[Micah Sweet]

EDIT: I would honestly also prefer if WotC would be a private company like steam, and not publicly owned but well not something one can change easily.

If only, right?

 

[Gradine]

In fairness, I am assuming that the toxicity went both ways. People always tend to view "the other side" as being toxic, and their own side as being reasonable.

No matter what the issue is.

I wouldn't recommend singling out any edition; just trying to be nice to each other regardless of gaming preferences.

You assume correctly. I 4venged with the best of them back in the day, and we got as well as we gave. And in retrospect I don't even really like 4e anymore.

Of course I played 3.5 for years, well over a decade most likely, and I loathe 3.x now.

These days of course I'm older, wiser, and produce considerably less testosterone, and I can see the virtue in letting people like what you hate and hate what you like.

Except a certain Star Wars film... I can't seem to let that one leave well enough alone...

Except bards. I've met pro- and anti-4e people that I can respect, but I never met a bard that didn't need killin'.

My Baldur's Gate 3 character would like to have a few words

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You assume correctly. I 4venged with the best of them back in the day, and we got as well as we gave. And in retrospect I don't even really like 4e anymore.

Of course I played 3.5 for years, well over a decade most likely, and I loathe 3.x now.

These days of course I'm older, wiser, and produce considerably less testosterone, and I can see the virtue in letting people like what you hate and hate what you like.

Yep. I mean, there are certainly some things (as we both know) that you don't have to take that position on- after all, there are some issues that require pointing out the bad, and you just can't "both sides" it.

But when it comes to D&D and what not? It's ... I don't want to say that your thing isn't serious, but ... maybe it isn't worth all that. And as part of the human condition, we all remember what the other side does, and tend to forgive the trespasses of people fightin' the good fight.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

That is all I ask, Snarf, all I freakin' ask. But nope, literally within minutes of you posting this we've had another flare of up of 4e hatred.

Some times, the scars linger long after the war is over.

4e toxicity was far, far, FAR worse than the relatively tame and IMO understandable "if you don't like 4e, get out" talk or "toxicity" if you prefer.

4e side: "If you don't like our game, don't let the door hit you on the way out."
anti-4e side: coming up on 20 years of aggressive hatred

... I have no opinion on this, other than both sides certainly feel that way, and I really hope that some day, people can just discuss it reasonably.

So we can get to the real issue- that 2e was terrible and a real betrayal of 1e! AMIRITE?