D&D General Ray Winninger on 5e’s success, product cadence, the OGL, and more.

[EthanSental]

That might be the goal, but the trick comes down to figuring out from a publisher's POV if they are doing that.

If they hit, it then means you need to figure out if you want to hitch your wagon to something that isn't growing. If it's not, IMO it's better to go with something of your own.

My experience with games is that a game that is holding steady is getting ready to shrink, unless you take specific steps to charge up growth with new features, content, etc. With 5.5, the rules are locked into place for the next several years. Why launch into a platform that's stuck in neutral?

In terms of supporting both versions, that's my biggest criticism of 5.5. It's not clear what that looks like or what fans expect. There's no clear, easy way to figure out what that actually means. The risk is that something that supports both either requires a lot more design overheard or it appeals to neither group.

So Mike, what’s the impetus for backing your Odyssey game that’s built off a 5e framework to level 10 if 5e or 5.5e is shrinking? Why not create something new or off a system that is growing but then again, 10 million 5e players is a larger chance to pull people in than 1 million players of another system to just try out the new system? Curious on the mindset for your game on patreon now.

 

[billd91]

That doesn't make any sense to me. If you had a huge order, you'd just split it out across multiple vendors.

The more I think about it, the more I'd worry about the business side of things. Hasbro is in massive debt and needs profitability over everything else. Between tariffs and printing in the US and western Europe, they're not making much money on the printed books.

I wonder if this goes back to the strategy outlined up thread - if WotC wants to push everything to direct sales, then the profitability of the books doesn't matter if they lock people into D&D Beyond. They'll make their money long term by cutting retailers and distributors out of the equation.

I gotta figure it’s an attempt to blunt some tariff issues and shipping interruptions since it has sounded to me like the US market has been served my US printing, the EU by EU printing, and Asia/Oceania by Chinese printing.

 

[mearls]

So Mike, what’s the impetus for backing your Odyssey game that’s built off a 5e framework to level 10 if 5e or 5.5e is shrinking? Why not create something new or off a system that is growing but then again, 10 million 5e players is a larger chance to pull people in than 1 million players of another system to just try out the new system? Curious on the mindset for your game on patreon now.

With the caveat that it is a work in progress and might change as I go:

I'm in a position where I want to play more TTRPGs and D&D, but right now I don't have a lot of time. I think I am not alone. In fact, I think a huge number of people played a lot of TTRPGs during the pandemic, but since then the time they have for games has shrunk dramatically.

The idea is to create a game that addresses one of those reasons why the audience might be shrinking - people don't have time to play. If I'm right, the game will appeal to people who have bounced from D&D or the hobby.

I also have a theory that the basic core of 5e - abilities, d20 + number against a target number - operates like a control scheme these days. To many gamers, it's like WASD and a mouse button in an FPS. It's the ubiquitous interface into this style of game. If I can draft off of that, then I can access everyone who ever learned to play 5e.

It's also a matter of scale. I intentionally built my life so that I can do this as a side project. It can totally flop and I'm OK with the money spent on it.

Since you asked, I don't feel guilty shilling the project. You can find it on Patreon.

 

[WinningerR]

The vast majority of (English language) D&D books were printed in the USA throughout the entire 5E era (and earlier!). Boxed products were typically manufactured in China. While Chinese printing is often cheaper than US printing in isolation, there are lots of factors that dictate the final price, including: shipping costs (and the ability to drop ship from the printer directly to distributors), paper availability and various other mundane considerations. The WotC print production team were (and probably, still are) stone pros. If there were cheaper or more efficient ways to produce the products, they would have found them.

The margins on the print books--even the new core books that sell at the old $49.95 MSRP--are not a problem.

Printing high quality, full color hardbacks on glossy stock at D&D scale is a non-trivial problem. Paper was often purchased long in advance to guarantee a sufficient supply. After initial forecasts for the PHB were submitted, we were warned we'd have to split the print job between multiple vendors.

 

[bedir than]

That's wild! And a huge blow to the bottom line. I wonder if the product was so far behind schedule that they had to scatter printing across the world to get stuff out on time.

That might be where the idea of multiple print runs come in.

Large printers either consolidated, went bankrupt or abandoned printing during the pandemic.

Target Report: Book Manufacturing in Turmoil

Change continues to rock the book manufacturing business. Despite confidence in the longevity of printed books, excess inventory from Covid years and print-on-demand technologies are showing impact.

www.piworld.com

 

[mearls]

The vast majority of (English language) D&D books were printed in the USA throughout the entire 5E era (and earlier!). Boxed products were typically manufactured in China. While Chinese printing is often cheaper than US printing in isolation, there are lots of factors that dictate the final price, including: shipping costs (and the ability to drop ship from the printer directly to distributors), paper availability and various other mundane considerations. The WotC print production team were (and probably, still are) stone pros. If there were cheaper or more efficient ways to produce the products, they would have found them.

The margins on the print books--even the new core books that sell at the old $49.95 MSRP--are not a problem.

Printing high quality, full color hardbacks on glossy stock at D&D scale is a non-trivial problem. Paper was often purchased long in advance to guarantee a sufficient supply. After initial forecasts for the PHB were submitted, we were warned we'd have to split the print job between multiple vendors.

There's a lot to unpack here.

You left Wizards in October of 2022. Are you saying that the entire plan for the new edition was laid down and locked in, to the point that you were sourcing the book's manufacture?

You had print windows and everything set up, to the point you were sourcing materials and buying the paper, at the same time you launched the playtest of the new edition? To the point that you are point blank stating that the margins were all locked in and figured out in '22 for a '24 release?

What was the point of the playtest?

 

[EthanSental]

With the caveat that it is a work in progress and might change as I go:

I'm in a position where I want to play more TTRPGs and D&D, but right now I don't have a lot of time. I think I am not alone. In fact, I think a huge number of people played a lot of TTRPGs during the pandemic, but since then the time they have for games has shrunk dramatically.

The idea is to create a game that addresses one of those reasons why the audience might be shrinking - people don't have time to play. If I'm right, the game will appeal to people who have bounced from D&D or the hobby.

I also have a theory that the basic core of 5e - abilities, d20 + number against a target number - operates like a control scheme these days. To many gamers, it's like WASD and a mouse button in an FPS. It's the ubiquitous interface into this style of game. If I can draft off of that, then I can access everyone who ever learned to play 5e.

It's also a matter of scale. I intentionally built my life so that I can do this as a side project. It can totally flop and I'm OK with the money spent on it.

Since you asked, I don't feel guilty shilling the project. You can find it on Patreon.

Thanks Mike and why I’m a backer on said patreon since January 2024

 

[mamba]

Whichever you prefer.

assuming I do it for me rather than sales, sure. But if I created a 2014 witch class then I would assume proportionally fewer sales to 2024 players and vice versa.

Same for monster stat blocks or adventures / settings that include new (sub)classes or monsters

 

[mamba]

The real gem, however, is 6e. A completely new edition designed from the ground up for online, subscription-based play

what design is improved by / requiring a subscription? Not sure I can think of one

As for ‘designed for online play’, that to me mostly means ‘make stuff overly complicated, so you need automation’, which is the opposite of what I want

To me the real solution is make a great VTT instead of making your game unplayable without one…

 

[eyeheartawk]

what design is improved by / requiring a subscription? Not sure I can think of one

Well, from the perspective of every MBA at Hasbro who ruins everything for a living, all designs are improved by this.