The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[payn]

What would happen if the 4e designers said, “Yup, we were totally influenced by WOW.”

So what?

I know right? I think this is a legacy thing that if it came about today nobody would care. At the time though there was a sort of cold war going on with TTRPGs and CRPGs and MMOs were seen as table top group killers and something to be avoided at all costs. Appears it was a pretty effective smear campaign becasue even today folks debate it endlessly.

Honestly, I always took the influenced by MMOs far less literally. To me, the designers simply took the ambiguous roles of early D&D and codified them into stronger mechanical roles, and aimed to offer a digital suite of options with a monthly subscription. That is it. It wasnt an attempt to make an MMO on paper, or copy WoW directly or any of these things.

Would those who enjoy 4e still enjoy it?
Would those who don’t enjoy 4e, start enjoying it?
Would it change ANYTHING?

This is what is frustrating about these endless wars. Even if one were to concede every single argument leveled towards 4e, it would never matter and never stop. We would still be subjected to ceaseless badgering.

Nothing would be changed. The goal of the warriors was to make viral memes that spread the dislike like wildfire and sadly it worked. Its clearly still working.

I would also like to note that in the past, “it’s like [WOW/videogame]” was considered blatant edition warring. is that still the case?

4E discussions are not top of site or leading the D&D way anymore. Folks can drop that nugget and it doesnt derail the entire conversation of every thread any longer. Not a mod but it doesn't seem like a thing that needs censure anymore. I guess you can just report it anytime you see it which might be better than trying to engage and argue it any longer. As noted above, it wont make you enjoy 4E anymore and wont make them dislike 4E any less.

One of the oddest things is seeing a lot of folks asking why 5E aint more like BG3. So, D&D being compared to a video game isnt what it used to be. Something to consider.

 

[Joshua Randall]

a lot of folks asking why 5E aint more like BG3. So, D&D being compared to a video game isnt what it used to be.

Schadenfreude intensifies.

 

[Zeromaru X]

What would happen if the 4e designers said, “Yup, we were totally influenced by WOW.”

So what?

Would it change ANYTHING?

Yes, it would change something: it will become a valid argument to criticise 4e. Because, up until now, it is a completely baseless argument that people like to throw up as an insult ("it looks like a videogame, so it's bad"), when we know it is not an actual truth.

So, yes, at least it would give legitimacy to the criticism.

 

[Voadam]

What's the 4E striker with a bit of controller mix?

Isn't that warlock from PH1? Eldritch blast based striker with some curse debuffs doing a bit of controller action?

I couldn't say for the various ranger builds. I never really checked out the beast companion ranger or the essentials more controllery ranger, I only played a fairly straight striker two weapon wielding PH1 ranger multiclassed to paragon wizard.

 

[Zardnaar]

Isn't that warlock from PH1? Eldritch blast based striker with some curse debuffs doing a bit of controller action?

I couldn't say for the various ranger builds. I never really checked out the beast companion ranger or the essentials more controllery ranger, I only played a fairly straight striker two weapon wielding PH1 ranger multiclassed to paragon wizard.

Yeah I think so. It's been a while and my 4E books are in a different room.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I kinda want to see two 4E versions on some aspect: I would like a grid-based and battlemat-less ruleset. But I am not sure the latter really works. In play, I think using the grid and all the position stuff is really fun, but needing some form of grid to adjucate can make things more difficult - you need more space/better tools.
But positioning and the grid is a very powerful way to create relatable interactions and states that easily tracked. Trying do this with more elaborate conditions is hard, and not neccessarily easy.

Maybe this is more a general game design question than 4E specific.

 

[Zardnaar]

I kinda want to see two 4E versions on some aspect: I would like a grid-based and battlemat-less ruleset. But I am not sure the latter really works. In play, I think using the grid and all the position stuff is really fun, but needing some form of grid to adjucate can make things more difficult - you need more space/better tools.
But positioning and the grid is a very powerful way to create relatable interactions and states that easily tracked. Trying do this with more elaborate conditions is hard, and not neccessarily easy.

Maybe this is more a general game design question than 4E specific.

Not really 4E specific 3.5 and 5.5 benefit from grids

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not really 4E specific 3.5 and 5.5 benefit from grids

I kinda feel it is, because 4E has a lot of "slide/push/pull" enemies x squares powers, including powers where the x was variable depending on your attribute and certain class/role/weapon stats.
3.x and 5E I think usually only had something like "makes person run away as fast as possible" or "push 1 square". It's a bit easier to handwave. 5.5 might need it more now with it having become easier to have push/pull/slide (I think, I only read some stuff about the new weapon features), while 3E bullrushing was rarely worth it or required heavy feat investment to become so, so only some parties worrid about it. In 4E you basically can't throw a brick without hitting a forced movement power!
Of course, stuff like Fireball or Cone of Cold or whatever still benefit greatly from a grid, so you're not just relying on more or less arbitrary rulings who and what you can hit.

 

[Joshua Randall]

The 4e PH1 warlock is officially a striker but plays more like a controller who happens to do good damage.

The 4e PH1 warlock also has the most unique and bizarre "conditions" it can impose upon targets, almost like whomever designed the warlock did so in a locked room away from everyone else, with no effort to use the standard conditions (dazed, slowed, etc.). Which is deeply strange, kind of annoying at the table, but also what makes the warlock super cool and interesting.

 

[Kannik]

Isn't that warlock from PH1? Eldritch blast based striker with some curse debuffs doing a bit of controller action?

I would say a big yes! I had a warlock playing in one of the 4e campaigns that constantly was doing controllery things that even to this day I often have to remind myself that a Warlock is a striker class.

I will use this as an excuse to drop my favourite description of the 4e roles:

A Striker is there to bring it to the enemy, dealing damage and tearing through their ranks.
A Defender is there to keep the enemy focused on them and takes what is dished out.
A Leader is there to make the party stronger and to keep them standing.
A Controller is there to make the DM tear their hair out.

"Haha, the opponents do this..." says I. "Nope!" the warlock said in return. Often.