D&D (2024) New Celestials | 2024 Monster Manual | D&D

[Henadic Theologian]

The new DMG still refers to it as a model, so I'm just going to pretend that the existence of the Outlands has led to it becoming the most dominant one (but still not the definite truth).

Anyways, if we're going to keep the Great Wheel as the default I'm glad they're actually starting to populate them with native creatures like animal lords and intelligent animals.

Guardinals, Eldarin, and Archons should have been in the MM 2024, and it's a big failure that they aren't.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Any category they put it in has lore implications. I’m arguing that I find the implications of the Giant category more compelling than those of the Celestial category for these creatures.

That is entirely fair.

For myself, I think the choice to make them celestial (or fey/fiendish/etc., as appropriate) spirits in animal form makes sense.

Particularly in the case of giant eagles, which have always felt like a pretty blatant reference to Lord of the Rings, where their entire role can be summed up as quasi-angelic saviors descending from on high to rescue the heroes in their hour of greatest need.

Is it just me or does WOTC seem allergic to the word Aasimon?

I mean, I get it... It sounds really close to aasimar, which is a term for a conceptually similar yet distinct thing, and came out of the same era that turned devils into baatezu and demons into tanar'ri so they could tell concerned parents that "No, D&D doesn't have demons or devils in it! Please buy our books!", something WotC hasn't exactly been shy about rolling back since they took the wheel.

Of course, I happen to like those names... I've always liked the idea that the terms that devils/demons/etc. use for themselves could be different from those used by ignorant mortals, and that era also gave us yugoloth as a name for daemons (which has pretty much become their default nomenclature, probably to help distinguish daemons from demons), gehreleth for demodands (which hasn't, but still pops up from time to time), and provided the basis for non-tanar'ri demons like obyriths and loumara down the road.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Guardinals, Eldarin, and Archons should have been in the MM 2024, and it's a big failure that they aren't.

Two of the three are in Planescape.

 

[dave2008]

And every time they do it, we have to make that choice.

Sure, I made the choice to skip / ignore most of 2e and 3e! At least I could figure out which parts I liked and throw our that which I did not.

My only issue was your implication it was solely a WotC thing. IT started with TSR.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Guardinals, Eldarin, and Archons should have been in the MM 2024, and it's a big failure that they aren't.

Continues eternal, entirely unsupported hopes for a Manual of the Planes/Great Wheel setting guide somewhere down the road

 

[dave2008]

Guardinals, Eldarin, and Archons should have been in the MM 2024, and it's a big failure that they aren't.

Don't you think people might complain: we just had those in Planescape, why are you wasting space on them here! So to you it is a failure they didn't include them and to others it would be a failure to include them.

A reasonable person might realize it is simply a choice and not failure to include or exclude them from the MM.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

That feels like a kind of weak retcon to align it with the 5E version. The quote he pulls out says Eberron's MATERIAL PLANE is inside the transitive planes. that's it.

Anyway, not that it matters. Keith's Eberron is not my Eberron.

For me it depends on how it's stated. I don't really have a problem with the Great Wheel and Great Orrery both being subsets of the "D&D Multiverse". On the other hand, the idea that the Great Orrery is a subset of the Great Wheel is an idea that deserves a swift kick to the gonads.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

For me it depends on how it's stated. I don't really have a problem with the Great Wheel and Great Orrery both being subsets of the "D&D Multiverse". On the other hand, the idea that the Great Orrery is a subset of the Great Wheel is an idea that deserves a swift kick to the gonads.

Fundamentally, I've always seen it as an option, not a mandate. A way to connect Eberron's cosmology to the Great Wheel for those who want it, but that is easily ignored if you don't.

And as someone who has somehow managed to square being a massive Planescape fan that loves using the Great Wheel to link together pretty much every setting imaginable with also being a massive Eberron fan who adores its unique cosmology and has absolutely no interest in connecting it to the Great Wheel, that seems like the best way to go about it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, I made the choice to skip / ignore most of 2e and 3e! At least I could figure out which parts I liked and throw our that which I did not.

My only issue was your implication it was solely a WotC thing. IT started with TSR.

I still disagree with you about lore replacement in the TSR era, but we're not going to resolve that debate.

 

[Umbran]

Merged duplicate threads.