WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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Lots of things have their moment in the sun and don't die after, but lose their prominence. Doctor Who had a major American revival during the Matt Smith/David Tennant eras but crested nearly 10+ years ago. Is Doctor Who still popular? Yes, but not "show the season opener in the theaters" popular. A lot of people feel Marvel crested at Endgame, and that Star Wars's last hurrah was the first two seasons of Mandelorian. All those properties are still relevant, but audiences are seeking new thrills and tastes.

Put another way, the 2024 PHB can outsell every other PHB to date AND still be less culturally relevant than it was 10 years ago.
Absolutely. Exactly the point I was trying to get across.
 

I backed it, but just because I wanted the setting info. The mechanics were always going to be too narrative for my tastes.
I always wanted to do a poll of backers to find out how many actually realized it was a PbtA game and not a 5E game. It felt to me like a lot of people just assumed it was more D&D adjacent -- but that was just an impression I got. I would be curious to know for sure.

I would also be interested in knowing how many folks were actually playing it. I feel like it is fewer than backed it. If I had to guess I would say something similar will happen with Cosmere: it seems like Sanderson fans will support anything with his name on it, even if they never intend to run or play the game.
 

It is not uncommon, but I am still surprised by the amount of force of the assertions in this thread based on, at most, personal anecdotes.

Please direct me to the stats that show is the number of players that have joined the hobby via D&D over the past 10 years, including their demographics as well as how many still play D&D. Provide me with numbers of players of other games and how and when they entered the hobby. Also give that sweet, sweet info on how much money they spend, what tech they use to play, and how much they do or do not engage in the wider D&D community (here and elsewhere).

It's okay to talk about your preferences and experiences, of course, but some of you seem to think you KNOW things that you literally can't because the data doesn't likely exist.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think the one fact that we do have is that the data or stats, as you put it, simply don't exist to substantially back up anyone's assertions, so we're left with prognostications or, of more interest to me, getting viewpoints from people who actually had feet on the ground at Wizards, or 3rd party publishers who have actively dealt with them. Even then, they're not fallible or perfect sources of information, but I'll take what they have to say with a heavier weight than others.
 

I always wanted to do a poll of backers to find out how many actually realized it was a PbtA game and not a 5E game. It felt to me like a lot of people just assumed it was more D&D adjacent -- but that was just an impression I got. I would be curious to know for sure.

I would also be interested in knowing how many folks were actually playing it. I feel like it is fewer than backed it. If I had to guess I would say something similar will happen with Cosmere: it seems like Sanderson fans will support anything with his name on it, even if they never intend to run or play the game.
The Avatar books are still in shrink wrap. I’d play but doubt I’d DM it.
 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think the one fact that we do have is that the data or stats, as you put it, simply don't exist to substantially back up anyone's assertions, so we're left with prognostications or, of more interest to me, getting viewpoints from people who actually had feet on the ground at Wizards, or 3rd party publishers who have actively dealt with them. Even then, they're not fallible or perfect sources of information, but I'll take what they have to say with a heavier weight than others.
My quibble isn't with the existence of opinions, it is with the force of those opinions based on very little or no data.
 

Eh, I'm not with Mike on this one.

D&D is still cool. But it isn't the hot new thing anymore, for sure. D&D 5E is 10 years old!

The OGL mess certainly had a negative impact on how folks view WotC and official D&D, but I think he overstates it's impact.

Is D&D slowing down or contracting? I'm not really seeing the evidence. The new core books are selling very well, tons of folks are still playing, there are tons of actual-play podcasts running, tons of 5E-compatible content being produced . . .

I think he's looking at "5.5" as a new edition, and where is the excitement? The new products specifically for this "new" edition? But that's not what the new rules are, they are simply a revision to the existing rules.

I do think the excitement level for D&D has cooled somewhat in the media, both mainstream and social, and that hasn't been bumped much by the new books . . . because they are very much NOT a new edition that needs to be hyped.

So, I guess, I'd buy the claim that excitement over D&D has cooled, and that growth has perhaps plateaued . . . but dropping, contracting, or declining? Nah. I mean, eventually it'll happen if it isn't now, but currently? Nah.

I'm not worried about my favorite game.
 

I maintain that this has never been tested in a way that sees rules as systems rather than line items. I doubt it ever will be.
This is also why I think there's a difference between WotC getting litigious versus third party publishers, and wanting to go after a larger corporation over something like a 5e engine for a video game, or some hypothetical Star Wars RPG that hits it big. The former they would be able to outspend on legal fees, the latter they wouldn't and equally wouldn't want to end up in a court battle over copyright of the rules.
 


This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.
Hey, remember the OGL fiasco that made all third party publishers worried that one of the biggest corporations in America was declaring war on them?

That's what happened to all of those other publishers, Mike. And it's why they're creating their own 5E-derivatives so that Hasbro can't try again at some point in the future. (Having an irrevocable license didn't matter last time -- some MBA who never heard about Creative Commons in college could well try it again in future, as ill-conceived as that might be.)

It's not that hard.
 

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