D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[SkidAce]

I've walked all over this land we call the Flanaess, and though I've heard whispers in dark places I've yet to find evidence of these so-called "dark elves." They're likely a myth to frighten elf children, methinks.

As well as rats that walk like men. Bah!

Skaven.

 

[AnotherGuy]

In the 80's monsters and characters had alignment
In the 2000s monsters had alignment
In the 2020s players must have alignment

 

[aco175]

I think you can thank Salvatore for making the Drow anything but D&D's dark skinned dommie mommies monster.

He also had Drizzt grappling with orcs being evil from birth and not just aggressive. He grappled back and forth and I thought he settled on them being born evil.

 

[Bedrockgames]

He also had Drizzt grappling with orcs being evil from birth and not just aggressive. He grappled back and forth and I thought he settled on them being born evil.

My favorite thing Drizzt grappled with was his character class

 

[Remathilis]

You can be hot-tempered, violent, etc. without being evil. You can glory in struggle and contest and such without being evil. Orcs combat against those who stand up to them or they deem worthy foes because they view combat as glorious and victory over ones enemies as a measure of status. If peoples flees before the might of the horde then they might laugh at the weak and cowardly as they run away because they view them as inferior. Certainly, this sort of culture lends itself to creating evil individuals, who relish in the kill itself.

But the problem is D&D never puts its money where it's mouth is. The vast majority of encounters with orcs puts them in the Evil and Aggressive role. You don't see orc football players, you see orc raiders. You dying meet orcs in cities, you meet them in dungeons. You see references to the ordonni, but they don't appear in modules (and I don't think have been acknowledged since 2e). You get references to non-evil orcs in Many-Arrows (which was reconned to being a ruse to get it's neighbors to let down their guard) and the Shadow Marshes, but little is done with them. There are no adventures set there, no sourcebooks detailing them. Orcs don't appear as citizens, they appear as villains. Over and over again.

Orcs are described as aggressive, warlike and dangerous. They are listed as Evil aligned and worship evil Gods. And PC overwhelmingly encounter them in hostile situations. 2 + 2 = 4, for the math illiterate.

So no, most players don't create characters with the intent to kill on site all orcs. But the game spends a lot of time convincing you that when you encounter orcs, you should not be conflicted about having to kill them.

 

[Remathilis]

He also had Drizzt grappling with orcs being evil from birth and not just aggressive. He grappled back and forth and I thought he settled on them being born evil.

Oh Bob isn't enlightened on that mark, he just made male drow cool enough and fleshed out drow culture enough that they aren't all feminine whiles incarnate.

 

[SkidAce]

I'm not going to respond to this in point by point breakdowns. Once discussions turn into that, that's where they stay and it bogs up the whole thread.

I do not understand how someone would hear the lore "Orcs are inherently, genetically more bloodlustfull and violent than humans, and less empathetic, loving, and compassionate" and somehow not understand that to mean they're innately evil. Love, empathy, and compassion are practically the exact opposite of evil. To inherently lack that means they're inherently evil.

Point of Order, its says "less empathetic, loving, etc.", not devoid of.

Best simple example? Orcs are Klingons. They make war, lay waste to the border, and still love their children and honor their family. They have cultural standards and goals. They are different.

You can understand why victims of their border raids consider them kill on sight, but that doesn't mean they are "Evil".*



*some of course could be...

 

[SkidAce]

If you're so adamant in your position that it doesn't portray them as innately evil, what do you think Volo's was trying to communicate?

Not the person you asked but...

Volo's is describing them as antagonists for the most part, and assumption of the "Volo's" setting/lore.

Are most encounters with them violent? Probably.
Are they all evil? No.
Could there be some good ones? Yes.
Will you ever encounter the good/less violent ones in the campaign? Not if you kill them all on sight.

 

[Scribe]

So, would you say that you were:

than most humans, because otherwise, you are ignoring a pretty important part of @Levistus's_Leviathan ‘s argument.

No, not at all. Now if I was beating up on people who did not wish to partake in that activity? Sure.

 

[SkidAce]

I was too, back when I first encountered it at age 13 (I think). Time hasn't been kind - I wasn't aware of quite what I was reading until later.

That's not the worst experience I've had revisiting stuff from the past. A few years ago I went through all my old homebrew notes, scanned everything and got rid of the hard copies. I'm not going to say what I found, but... ouch.

Testify friend...