D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[Voadam]

The Asians Represent podcast isn't a review of Oriental Adventures, or even an analysis really, it is a reaction.

And they made more "errors" than just when Comeliness was introduced to the game.

Doesn't matter.

It did matter.

If they had been factually correct and it was added specifically to OA that would be evidence of othering and sexualization and a reason 1e OA was problematic. I would have agreed with their conclusion.

But they were not correct and the actual facts and context show that it was not othering and sexaulizing so that conclusion on this point goes out the window.

This was their big main point taking up half their time in their opening two-hour analysis. It was what they chose to focus on.

And importantly they took unknowns for them, filled them in with assumptions and presented them as if they knew the actual facts, and made their big point conclusions based off of those assumptions. They created the problematic aspects up themselves from whole cloth to fill a gap in their knowledge and presented it as the relevant facts. For me as a listener that tells me not to trust the facts or characterization they assert that I do not independently know, and I cannot trust the validity of their asserted conclusions.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Huh! In the 80's I also went to school in California and I really didn't see any racism. What I did see was a ton of homophobia and homophobic slurs.

I am sure it depended on where you were. Where I lived I heard a lot of slurs for Mexicans (and because I tan and have black hair, even heard people use it at me). I also heard plenty of disparaging things said about black people. It wasn't like everyone was saying it, but there were kids in class who were probably picking these ideas up from their parents. And antisemitism I had several direct encounters with. In Massachusetts I didn't see it much but occasionally I would. My point was just that in the 80s this stuff was more prevalent and in the open than it is today

 

[Chaltab]

If I may take a moment to redirect us to the original topic of the thread, I've put up a DMs Guild product with customization options for most of the species in the game. So now you can make the Giff Death Cultist and Autognome Entertainer you've always wanted.

A Splash of Species

 

[Parmandur]

If I may take a moment to redirect us to the original topic of the thread, I've put up a DMs Guild product with customization options for most of the species in the game. So now you can make the Giff Death Cultist and Autognome Entertainer you've always wanted.

A Splash of Species

Though, seriously, I have.

 

[Belen]

I can't imagine navigating the forum with ten posts per page; I think 20 used to be the default, long ago; I was confused when I had to figure out how to set it that way again.

We used to get a glorious 40 per page.

 

[AnotherGuy]

This is a clash of ideologies that will not be solved by discussion regarding a word's origins, or a creature's concept (i.e orc, drow, vistani, shaman, philactery and oriental)

The divide between posters is based on their personal perception of the world. Tomorrow there will be another word or concept that will need to be removed/replaced and again a 100+ page thread will flourish.

My idea is that addition rather than subtraction is the better path.

In the description of a phylactery provide additional more common-used names by which the item is known by - soul cage, spirit box etc. And that the term phylactery is the archaic word known only by the most learned.

A side bar for variant orc ideas.

A page with a detailed description of various clerical titles and how they may be used when world building or providing depth to your character.

Optional stats for Comeliness and its possible use within the DMG

A discussion of dominant genes for mixed races/species, possible origins, epithets (good and bad)

DMG addressing Mature Topics
Racial Prejudice (for worldbuilding etc), Murderhoboism (as playstyle), Characters with Trauma etc

But sadly that's probably still not good enough...

 

[MGibster]

There is a story, not sure how true, that Gygax shared a pre-publication draft with four Japanese folks . . .

It's right there in the acknowledgments in the forward I think. It's pretty much as close as anyone got to sensitivity readers back in 1985 so far as RPGs were concerned. Still, no idea what many Asians thought about it at the time. I had one Asian friend back in 8th grade who was excited about it (five years after it was released), but we never actually gamed together.

I've heard anecdotal stories about Asian American gamers who, as kids in the 80s, felt excited about the book and felt seen by having their culture included in D&D. But later in life, after realizing how awful OA represented Asian cultures, their viewpoint became more nuanced.

I think most of us have similar revelations about things we enjoyed when we were younger. We grow, we learn, and our perspectives change, so when we encounter something we once loved we can't expect to necessarily look at it the same way. I certainly don't look at scenes from Revenge of the Nerds, Monster Squad, or Ace Ventura the same way I did back when those movies were released. Those movies still have their merits, but I can recognize their flaws.

So it is with OA. Overall I think it was a pretty good gaming book, but there are many valid criticisms which I agree with. And some criticisms I don't.

OA was definitely a "product of its time"! You would hope that publishers today would do better, and most strive to, but it's hardly something we can just consign to the past.

I would hope so. I was always told it's okay to like problematic things just so long as you understand why it's problematic. I don't know if that attitude is common these days.

 

[Azzy]

Wait . . . "Comeliness" wasn't in the 3E OA, was it?

No, it wasn't. Thank heavens for small mercies.

 

[Faolyn]

So this sexist rule was introduced earlier than OA, but was it handled differently in OA? Was it worded differently in that Asian fetishization way?

Because if so (ie, comeliness being handled differently in OA than its predecessors) then it certainly was worth bringing into focus.

I dunno, if it hadn't been used in a while and then was suddenly brought back in a book featuring an ethnic group white guys like to fetishize, then it probably doesn't matter if it was handled differently or not.

 

[ezo]

But sadly that's probably still not good enough...

Actually, it would be perfect, but there are too many who wouldn't stand for even this sort of compromise. They insist their way is the one true way.