D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[Bae'zel]

Nope. You are factually wrong.

There is no way to build a NPC using the PC rules. To build and NPC, under the rules for creating a creature, you start with the CR first and then work backwards. THAT'S how NPC's are built. That you build NPC's using PC rules doesn't change that. That is 100% NOT how NPC's are built. And haven't been built that way since day 1 of 5e.

By the book, perhaps.

But I don’t. I have little use for CR except as a loose guide on building encounters.

I’ve built NPCs as fully fledged characters with levels for 30 years. Important ones, anyway. “Lesser” NPCs just use generic humanoid stat blocks.

These universal “truths” are kind of weird to me.

 

[TiQuinn]

Care to be more specific? When you build an NPC, you start with the CR, and then build to that. What did you have in mind?

Sure. Check out page 92 of the 5e DMG - NPC Statistics, Using Classes and Levels.

“You can create an NPC just as you would a player character, using the rules in the Player’s Handbook. You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the NPC’s vital information.”

And in fact in that section, at the end, it says also figure out the CR, but it doesn’t say you have to start there.

 

[Remathilis]

Not for me; as that's exactly how I see them. Your class is your (current) profession - she's a plumber, he's a baker, I'm a cleric, she's a fighter. A feat or ability or spell represents some specialist training you've had along the way.

So all fighters belong to the same profession?

 

[Remathilis]

Sure. Check out page 92 of the 5e DMG - NPC Statistics, Using Classes and Levels.

“You can create an NPC just as you would a player character, using the rules in the Player’s Handbook. You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the NPC’s vital information.”

And in fact in that section, at the end, it says also figure out the CR, but it doesn’t say you have to start there.

It's worth noting that while the DMG does suggest that, it's a concept I wouldn't even call halfway baked. PC class NPCs are very glass cannon and cannot survive combat with a group of real PCs. Compare an 18th level wizard to the NPC archmage and the wizard class NPC barely scapes a double digit CR (and that's due to meteor swarm). In reality, the PC class NPCs are better for party member DMPCs than combat encounters unless you build them to play rocket tag and hope you get the better initiative draw.

 

[TiQuinn]

It's worth noting that while the DMG does suggest that, it's a concept I wouldn't even call halfway baked. PC class NPCs are very glass cannon and cannot survive combat with a group of real PCs. Compare an 18th level wizard to the NPC archmage and the wizard class NPC barely scapes a double digit CR (and that's due to meteor swarm). In reality, the PC class NPCs are better for party member DMPCs than combat encounters unless you build them to play rocket tag and hope you get the better initiative draw.

I’m just responding to Hussar’s statement that there is no way to build a NPC using the PC rules. Whether that section is fully baked or not, I’ll let you pick apart for the next 30 pages of this thread.

 

[Remathilis]

I’m just responding to Hussar’s statement that there is no way to build a NPC using the PC rules. Whether that section is fully baked or not, I’ll let you pick apart for the next 30 pages of this thread.

Yeah, I'll agree it was there, but it doesn't look like WotC put any thought or effort into it. (They probably didn't, knowing what we know about the DMGs production. It probably only existed to justify the Oath breaker and death domain). WotC themselves never used this method (the closest was in Tyranny of Dragons where NPCs got certain PC like abilities) and never gave support for it outside the DMG. I can almost forgive Hussar for forgetting they exist.

 

[TiQuinn]

Yeah, I'll agree it was there

I win. I win the thread. (Pulls ripcord and leaves thread)

 

[TwoSix]

My only real issue with multiclassing is that someone, without any practice or training, can become a wizard in a day, because they leveled up in a fight. In my game I require the PCs to work towards multiclassing well before they ever get there, so at least there's some semblance of rationality to the new class. The exceptions are the classes where no training needs to be involved, like Cleric(the god chooses you), sorcerer(innate, natural ability), and warlock(made a deal with the devil for power).

I always assume that if a character has the aptitude for wizardry, actually learning to do it just takes a few days of practice with an old spellbook.

And, as always, the character building rules are there to create narrative heroes, not to define rules for all the NPCs in some grand strategy game. In the neotrad orientation of 5e, PCs are meant to be ta'veren, not a random sampling of the local NPC population.

 

[Bae'zel]

I always assume that if a character has the aptitude for wizardry, actually learning to do it just takes a few days of practice with an old spellbook.

And, as always, the character building rules are there to create narrative heroes, not to define rules for all the NPCs in some grand strategy game. In the neotrad orientation of 5e, PCs are meant to be ta'veren, not a random sampling of the local NPC population.

I agree. While I don't know if this is just an individual playstyle thing, as the DM, I always see the PCs as unique and special, above the normal masses around them.

Unless I'm running an "old school" game where the players specifically want to be expendable schlubs and rat catchers.

For suddenly becoming a Wizard, it depends on the setting. High Magic Forgotten Realms? Sure, take a couple of weeks and you now have a level of Wizard. In a more low magic setting? Off to Wizard College for you for at least a few months... or... take a shortcut and make a Pact with a mysterious being in the shadows who gives you the abilities without the effort.

 

[Maxperson]

Nope. You are factually wrong.

There is no way to build a NPC using the PC rules. To build and NPC, under the rules for creating a creature, you start with the CR first and then work backwards. THAT'S how NPC's are built. That you build NPC's using PC rules doesn't change that. That is 100% NOT how NPC's are built. And haven't been built that way since day 1 of 5e.

No, you are factually wrong. 5e DMG page 92.

"NPC STATI STIC S
When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels."

"USING CLASSES AND LEVELS
You can create an NPC just as you would a player character, using the rules in the Player's Handbook. You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the NPC's vital information."

It is RAW that you can make an NPC just like a PC. The MM uses one option, but the other option also means that those classes are running around as NPCs.