D&D General Reification versus ludification in 5E/6E

[Maxperson]

I always assume that if a character has the aptitude for wizardry, actually learning to do it just takes a few days of practice with an old spellbook.

And, as always, the character building rules are there to create narrative heroes, not to define rules for all the NPCs in some grand strategy game. In the neotrad orientation of 5e, PCs are meant to be ta'veren, not a random sampling of the local NPC population.

Aes Sedai were much closer to sorcerers than wizards, though. D&D has typically had wizardry take a long time to learn as part of the lore.

5e PHB page 112

"Though the casting of a typical spell requires merely the utterance of a few strange words, fleeting gestures, and sometimes a pinch or clump of exotic materials, these surface components barely hint at the expertise attained after years of apprenticeship and countless hours of study."

Even so, I do allow PCs to become wizards without that, because they are in my world men and women of destiny, but it still takes at least some time in game learning from a PC or NPC wizard how to do things. Not just POOF, I'm a wizard right now without ever even thinking about becoming one, just because I leveled.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. Those limitations only exist because of how classes work in 5e, those aren't real limitations of the world at all.

No, you are factually wrong. 5e DMG page 92.

"NPC STATI STIC S
When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels."

"USING CLASSES AND LEVELS
You can create an NPC just as you would a player character, using the rules in the Player's Handbook. You can even use a character sheet to keep track of the NPC's vital information."

It is RAW that you can make an NPC just like a PC. The MM uses one option, but the other option also means that those classes are running around as NPCs.

To which 5e DMG are you referring?

 

[Maxperson]

To which 5e DMG are you referring?

There is only one 5e DMG. I don't know what the 5.5e DMG says. It doesn't matter, though, WotC has said that the 5e rules are also still in effect due to their misguided backwards compatibility claims.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is only one 5e DMG. I don't know what the 5.5e DMG says. It doesn't matter, though, WotC has said that the 5e rules are also still in effect due to their misguided backwards compatibility claims.

I don't disagree, but I think some folks would tell you that the 5e DMG is no longer in effect now that the 5.5 DMG is available, since it, like the rest of the core books, is a straight replacement.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't disagree, but I think some folks would tell you that the 5e DMG is no longer in effect now that the 5.5 DMG is available, since it, like the rest of the core books, is a straight replacement.

I think most people will treat it that way, but how they treat the books doesn't alter what WotC claimed about the 5e rules still being valid. That means when discussing the rules as written, I can still quote the 5e books.

 

[Remathilis]

I think most people will treat it that way, but how they treat the books doesn't alter what WotC claimed about the 5e rules still being valid. That means when discussing the rules as written, I can still quote the 5e books.

The technical caveat is that anything that isn't replaced by the revised books are still valid. Since the rules for using PC classes on NPCs* weren't updated, they remain valid. Arguing that druids lose their spells for wearing studded leather would not be, as that was removed by the updated druid class.

Of course, that only applies to arguing on the Internet. Do whatever the hell you want at your own table

* Well, they're more what you call guidelines than actual rules.

 

[James Gasik]

The fact that we're not told what the CR of a character built by PC rules is does make it difficult to employ one as an antagonist, however. If I eyeball it, a 1st-level Fighter might be equal to a CR 1/4, but their AC would be quite high. Other classes get a bit stranger- like a 1st-level Wizard would be closer to a CR 1/8.

But things rapidly get out of hand. The CR 5 Gladiator has 100 hit points and 3 attacks per round, making them more like an 11th-level Fighter. So I think this way of building NPC's is best used for ones that are either allies or won't see combat.

 

[Maxperson]

The technical caveat is that anything that isn't replaced by the revised books are still valid. Since the rules for using PC classes on NPCs* weren't updated, they remain valid. Arguing that druids lose their spells for wearing studded leather would not be, as that was removed by the updated druid class.

Of course, that only applies to arguing on the Internet. Do whatever the hell you want at your own table

* Well, they're more what you call guidelines than actual rules.

No, I don't believe that's the case. I'm pretty sure that they said we could use the 5e rules instead of the new ones if we want. And they definitely said the 5e classes could adventure with the 5.5e classes in the same game.

It's a mix and match thing. Obviously a game can't use two mutually exclusive rules simultaneously, but the DM is free to pick from either 5e or 5.5e for which valid rule he is going to be using.

 

[Belen]

The technical caveat is that anything that isn't replaced by the revised books are still valid. Since the rules for using PC classes on NPCs* weren't updated, they remain valid. Arguing that druids lose their spells for wearing studded leather would not be, as that was removed by the updated druid class.

Of course, that only applies to arguing on the Internet. Do whatever the hell you want at your own table

* Well, they're more what you call guidelines than actual rules.

WOTC are still selling 2014 corebooks on D&D Beyond which suggests they remain valid.

 

[James Gasik]

No, I don't believe that's the case. I'm pretty sure that they said we could use the 5e rules instead of the new ones if we want. And they definitely said the 5e classes could adventure with the 5.5e classes in the same game.

It's a mix and match thing. Obviously a game can't use two mutually exclusive rules simultaneously, but the DM is free to pick from either 5e or 5.5e for which valid rule he is going to be using.

This will make "what is RAW, really" quite a question for discussions. You might have to set ground rules in the initial posts, lest you get "well, see, in 5e2024 any 5e content (that wasn't updated) is viable for use, so applicable to this discussion!".