Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[Willie the Duck]

Also the episode in which Miles wished Keiko could be more like a man.

Between her first husband in another life wearing her dresses better than she did, and then this, she has got to feel that her femininity is being challenged.

I do feel sorry for Keiko - as a side character she only ever really showed up in Miles-centric episodes, and since Miles-centric episodes were almost always under the "O'Brien must suffer" rule, she tended to come off as disproportionately unsympathetic in them. I do wish we'd got to see more scenes of actual married bliss for Miles and his family.

Most of the spouse characters did end up being a little one-note. Keiko was an avenue towards children and unsympathetic spouse who couldn't understand what Miles was going through. Kasidy Yates got to be the tough freighter pilot who could take care of herself, but that's most of what she got to be. And yes, it is mostly because, as uncontracted per-episode side actors, we only see them when they are doing something to further the main character's story that week (usually as a foil in some way). As unrealistic as I find it when the main cast has to always end up romantically linked with each other, at least it means they both show up in ways other than directly furthering the other's story.

It would be great if they could at least hint at extensive side stories we just didn't see where Keiko saved Quark's bar from foreclosure or Worf and Dax just got back from a double date with Sisko and Yates (who were super lovey-dovey and Yates was so interesting and well-developed) or the like. But there conservation of storytelling often clips that extraneous writing.

 

[Ryujin]

1. Do you do, or do you do not, remember the scene I am referencing?
2. You will note that I did not say anything about it being good.

Oh, I know. The point is... is there a point? I don't know if there's a point. My point is that this that this is very different from Bashir and Garak. I don't think I have a best friend who is on par with my wife, but I can imagine the scenario. And no level of deepness of that level would make that the romantic relationship, and the one with my wife the 'friend' relationship. I think it's doubly cool if we accept the subtextual Bashir/Garak as canonical, and O'Brien can have a more powerful platonic relationship with a gay man (forming a romantic relationship with a third man) than his romantic relationship with his wife is, and that still not making his affection for Bashir romantic.

But yeah, poor Keiko (when she minds).

 

[jian]

I can’t remember where it’s from, but a DS9 parody had this exchange:

Miles: That reminds me, Odo, I haven’t seen you shapeshift for a while where anybody could see.

Odo: Much like the way we never see your wife around, hmmm?

Miles: I’m pretty sure Keiko isn’t as expensive as your shapeshifting.

 

[MarkB]

Wow, yeah, she does seem like she's in an entirely different (and better) show than the rest of the cast.

 

[overgeeked]

Could it ever be?

Yes, absolutely.

However the two shows started out, they each found their own identity and told their own stories through the course of their runs, and whether or not the origins of DS9 are problematic is somewhat irrelevant this many years down the line.

Relevant in the sense of acknowledging facts, yes.

The conversation can be productive as a means to deeper understanding of both, yes. As a way to highlight how each handled their own versions of the same stories as they played out on the different shows, yes. To compare and contrast similar elements, yes. Etc.

I mean take one of the big similarities. The captain of the station is a religious figure to an alien species. That’s an incredibly rare, almost unique, plot element. I can think of exactly two instances of it. I’m sure there are more, but the likelihood of two shows coming out within one month of each other having that exact same story element? So minute as to effectively be zero. Beyond the fact that’s not a coincidence, which handled it better, which did a more interesting job, told more engaging stories with that element, etc? That’s where the interesting conversation is. But you can’t get to that if people deny the very clear and obvious similarities.

 

[MarkB]

Yes, absolutely.

Relevant in the sense of acknowledging facts, yes.

The conversation can be productive as a means to deeper understanding of both, yes. As a way to highlight how each handled their own versions of the same stories as they played out on the different shows, yes. To compare and contrast similar elements, yes. Etc.

I mean take one of the big similarities. The captain of the station is a religious figure to an alien species. That’s an incredibly rare, almost unique, plot element. I can think of exactly two instances of it. I’m sure there are more, but the likelihood of two shows coming out within one month of each other having that exact same story element? So minute as to effectively be zero. Beyond the fact that’s not a coincidence, which handled it better, which did a more interesting job, told more engaging stories with that element, etc? That’s where the interesting conversation is. But you can’t get to that if people deny the very clear and obvious similarities.

Exploring where each show went with such ideas could be an interesting conversation, yes. But straying into "which one did it better?", as will almost certainly occur within any such conversation even if you didn't set out to do so (and you have) is only likely to devolve into dick-measuring contests and arguments. Anything productive will be outweighed by the negativity.

 

[jian]

But Sisko and Sheridan/Sinclair are very different characters in very different settings.

How were they different? Well, for one thing Sheridan/Sinclair are two different characters and had to deal with that.

Sisko is an important figure to a religion central to a people who were enslaved for 60 years but he is also the representative of a foreign power (if ally); he eventually sacrifices himself to a supernatural mythological conflict to save the world. Sinclair is the reincarnation (well, past version) of a mythical hero of an alien empire who travels back in time to fulfil his destiny. Sheridan is vaguely messianic and is resurrected twice but isn’t core to anyone’s religion. There are similarities but they’re very different characters. I suppose Sinclair and Sisko are more similar but we didn’t get to see much of that because of O’Hare’s departure.

Similarly there are parallels between Kira and Ivanova, but honestly not a lot. They’re both fictional characters in science fiction settings who are fun to watch. You can compare them in the same way you can compare Superman and Captain America, or Aragorn and Drizzt Do’urden, or whatever.

 

[overgeeked]

Exploring where each show went with such ideas could be an interesting conversation, yes. But straying into "which one did it better?", as will almost certainly occur within any such conversation even if you didn't set out to do so (and you have)

I did not set out to do anything other than discuss a tangent brought up by another poster.

is only likely to devolve into dick-measuring contests and arguments. Anything productive will be outweighed by the negativity.

You’re describing all fandom conversations. Sorry you don’t like fandom.

 

[Umbran]

Well, different in places, certainly. I don't know about preceding. JMS submitted his series bible to Paramount. They had it in hand while planning DS9. There are just too many overt similarities to be coincidental.

Yeah, but, perhaps with a bit of perspective of time, JMS himself has said, many, many times, that ideas are a dime a dozen - what makes one author (or show) successful isn't the ideas, but the execution.

Even if DS9 contains stolen ideas, the executions are very, very different.

 

[overgeeked]

Well, for one thing Sheridan/Sinclair are two different characters and had to deal with that.

Yes, but that was not the initial plan. They were one character in the series bible JMS submitted to Paramount. They only added Sheridan after Michael O’Hare had to quit due to increasing mental health issues. JMS simply changed the name and slightly tweaked the character to compensate.

And yes, the B5 captain is absolutely central to Minbari religion. Their main religious figure is Valen. They repeatedly say, “In Valen’s name” as a kind of prayer or blessing. Guess who Valen really is? The captain of B5. He’s about as central to their religion as it’s possible to be.