Spoilers Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

[Ryujin]

But Sisko and Sheridan/Sinclair are very different characters in very different settings.

How were they different? Well, for one thing Sheridan/Sinclair are two different characters and had to deal with that.

Sisko is an important figure to a religion central to a people who were enslaved for 60 years but he is also the representative of a foreign power (if ally); he eventually sacrifices himself to a supernatural mythological conflict to save the world. Sinclair is the reincarnation (well, past version) of a mythical hero of an alien empire who travels back in time to fulfil his destiny. Sheridan is vaguely messianic and is resurrected twice but isn’t core to anyone’s religion. There are similarities but they’re very different characters. I suppose Sinclair and Sisko are more similar but we didn’t get to see much of that because of O’Hare’s departure.

Similarly there are parallels between Kira and Ivanova, but honestly not a lot. They’re both fictional characters in science fiction settings who are fun to watch. You can compare them in the same way you can compare Superman and Captain America, or Aragorn and Drizzt Do’urden, or whatever.

The two different characters was the answer to a problem; the issues of mental illness that Michael O'Hare was dealing with, at the time, and was kept pretty much secret until after his passing. It was originally intended that it would be a single character; Sinclair.

 

[jian]

Yes, but that was not the initial plan. They were one character in the series bible JMS submitted to Paramount. They only added Sheridan after Michael O’Hare had to quit due to increasing mental health issues. JMS simply changed the name and slightly tweaked the character to compensate.

And yes, the B5 captain is absolutely central to Minbari religion. Their main religious figure is Valen. They repeatedly say, “In Valen’s name” as a kind of prayer or blessing. Guess who Valen really is? The captain of B5. He’s about as central to their religion as it’s possible to be.

But Sheridan isn’t Valen, that’s Sinclair. Are they somehow both Valen?

Valen is not the Emissary. Valen is more like King Arthur, the Emissary is… well, a new thing, no obvious historical parallel. It’s like if Tibetan Buddhism declared that Taylor Swift was a bodhisattva. The position of the Emissary is very unclear in Bajoran religion, somewhere between “the first person the Prophets have talked to in centuries, so we should listen to him” and “the Prophets have terrible taste.”

 

[MarkB]

I did not set out to do anything other than discuss a tangent brought up by another poster.

In the "religious figure" example you cited, one of your questions was "which handled it better?" So yeah, your intention was to go there.

Yes, but that was not the initial plan. They were one character in the series bible JMS submitted to Paramount. They only added Sheridan after Michael O’Hare had to quit due to increasing mental health issues. JMS simply changed the name and slightly tweaked the character to compensate.

And yes, the B5 captain is absolutely central to Minbari religion. Their main religious figure is Valen. They repeatedly say, “In Valen’s name” as a kind of prayer or blessing. Guess who Valen really is? The captain of B5. He’s about as central to their religion as it’s possible to be.

Are you sure you're attempting a constructive discussion?

 

[Ryujin]

But Sheridan isn’t Valen, that’s Sinclair. Are they somehow both Valen?

Valen is not the Emissary. Valen is more like King Arthur, the Emissary is… well, a new thing, no obvious historical parallel. It’s like if Tibetan Buddhism declared that Taylor Swift was a bodhisattva. The position of the Emissary is very unclear in Bajoran religion, somewhere between “the first person the Prophets have talked to in centuries, so we should listen to him” and “the Prophets have terrible taste.”

As stated, the original plan was for Sinclair to fill both effective roles; leader of the Interstellar Alliance and Valen reborn.

 

[overgeeked]

But Sheridan isn’t Valen, that’s Sinclair. Are they somehow both Valen?

Valen is not the Emissary. Valen is more like King Arthur, the Emissary is… well, a new thing, no obvious historical parallel. It’s like if Tibetan Buddhism declared that Taylor Swift was a bodhisattva. The position of the Emissary is very unclear in Bajoran religion, somewhere between “the first person the Prophets have talked to in centuries, so we should listen to him” and “the Prophets have terrible taste.”

Respectfully, watch more of the show. The Emissary is a lot more important than that.

 

[jian]

As stated, the original plan was for Sinclair to fill both effective roles; leader of the Interstellar Alliance and Valen reborn.

Oh, yes, fair enough. It’s all a tad too messianic for my taste. One thing I didn’t like much about Babylon 5 was the fantasy trappings; I think it’d have been better without.

The best thing about B5 were the character arcs of Londo and G’kar, on the other hand, which were both fantastic.

 

[jian]

Respectfully, watch more of the show. The Emissary is a lot more important than that.

Since I’ve seen 80% of the show I respectfully disagree. The Emissary is important because he’s spoken to the Prophets and basically because Kai Opaka says he is; as such he becomes an important figure for many Bajorans. Kai Winn would rather he took a EVA without a suit, and many Bajorans aren’t happy with the very existence of the Emissary, let alone the fact that he’s not Bajoran. He’s as important as the plot requires for a given episode.

 

[billd91]

But Sisko and Sheridan/Sinclair are very different characters in very different settings.

How were they different? Well, for one thing Sheridan/Sinclair are two different characters and had to deal with that.

Sisko is an important figure to a religion central to a people who were enslaved for 60 years but he is also the representative of a foreign power (if ally); he eventually sacrifices himself to a supernatural mythological conflict to save the world. Sinclair is the reincarnation (well, past version) of a mythical hero of an alien empire who travels back in time to fulfil his destiny. Sheridan is vaguely messianic and is resurrected twice but isn’t core to anyone’s religion. There are similarities but they’re very different characters. I suppose Sinclair and Sisko are more similar but we didn’t get to see much of that because of O’Hare’s departure.

Maybe the DS9 team was inspired to make Sisko a figure in Bajoran religion because of the Bab5 information - but it is true he was implemented in a very different way.

Sisko is a person who had direct contact with entities revered as gods by the Bajorans. That makes him akin to a prophet or someone "touched" by gods that he doesn't even worship - hence Emissary. He's not a divine figure in and of himself as much as a guy who has been blessed by being contacted and thus wields a great deal of influence among believers.

Sinclair/Valen, however, is personally key to Minbari civic "religion" in the sense that he arrives as a savior in a dark hour, establishes the Grey Council, and picks up a myth of returning some day. So he's more of a messianic figure, though not directly part of their spiritual religion so much as a civic religion. He's kind of like a King Arthur, rallying Britons against the Saxons, establishing a semi-utopian government, and then passing on with a myth of returning.

 

[Ryujin]

Since I’ve seen 80% of the show I respectfully disagree. The Emissary is important because he’s spoken to the Prophets and basically because Kai Opaka says he is; as such he becomes an important figure for many Bajorans. Kai Winn would rather he took a EVA with a suit, and many Bajorans aren’t happy with the very existence of the Emissary, let alone the fact that he’s not Bajoran. He’s as important as the plot requires for a given episode.

Then I think you missed that Sisko is essentially half Prophet, through his mother. His mother was possessed by a Prophet at the time of his conception.

 

[jian]

Then I think you missed that Sisko is essentially half Prophet, through his mother. His mother was possessed by a Prophet at the time of his conception.

Yes, I thought that was a stupid addition, and quite unnecessary to the story. It doesn’t necessarily make him special, either, since he’s physically fully human. Also, that wasn’t known to most Bajorans and so it doesn’t make him more important to their religion.