D&D (2024) Do We Really Need Levels 11-20?

[Clint_L]

The intent is for levels 1 and 2 to be training levels and level 3 to be the really ready for adventure level. They didnt "fix" it becasue its intended to work this way.

They don't need fixing!

I love levels 1 and 2!

Narratively, level 1 is wet behind the ears adventurers trying to figure things out. It's the beginning of the story. Level 2 shows them getting a little seasoning and starting to unlock their potential, and then level 3 represents their first big choice. It makes story sense!

And if you're not into levels 1 and 2, you can just start at 3 (like my current group...). But they should still be there for those who want that baby character experience, just as the high levels need to be there for those who are into that aspect of play. It's okay for different people to like different things, and just because I'm not into something doesn't mean it shouldn't exist!

Edit: there is at least one regular poster on this forum who, for years, played only the red box - levels 1-3. And loved it! Apparently the Russo brothers (Avengers: End Game, etc.) played only Phandelver for years (levels 1-5). Bless!

 

[MGibster]

Yes.

It's like I just found out Santa Claus isn't real all over again.

 

[Parmandur]

It's like I just found out Santa Claus isn't real all over again.

As of tge 1014 rulebooks release, the design foal is that a group of high schoolers or college students could do 1-20 in two semesters of Saturday play.

 

[Parmandur]

@MGibster @Remathilis

Page 43, after explaining Leveling up and delineating yhe 4 tiers of play, the section titled "Starting at Higher Levels" states, emphasis added:

"YouTube FM may start your group's characters at level higher than 1. It is particularly recommended to start at level 3 if your group is composed of seasoned D&D players."

so, 3, not 4.

 

[Staffan]

Since when? Is this something that started in 2014? Is it a design goal they pointed out anywhere?

I think I've seen one of the designers mention that levels 1 and 2 are intended as "tutorial levels", which is why you gain your core stuff at levels 1, 2, and 3. This is also why those levels zoom by when you're using XP rather than milestones. I don't know if they changed the XP charts and/or encounter guidelines in 5.5e, but levels 1 and 2 are supposed to last 6 medium or 4 hard encounters (of the same level as the PCs) in 5.0. After that you're supposed to spend 12/8 at level 3, and then 15/10 at each level up to 9, and a 17.5/11 at level 10. After that, it picks up the pace with 9-10/6-7 encounters per level (you can find the math here).

It is a presentation problem that this is never made explicit in the 5.0 rules. You have the XP chart, and the XP per encounter chart, but there's nothing that says that the game is supposed to slow down in the 4-10 sweet spot and then speed up at level 11+.

There are also some other indicators that the game is supposed to change character after level 10 or so, and not just the description of tiers of play. One of the more notable ones is how spells of level 6+ are treated differently from spells at level 5+. Using sorcery points to create new spell slots as well as using Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery (the Druid of the Land equivalent) to recover slots are all limited to 5th level spell slots or lower, and the Warlock's Pact Magic only goes up to 5th level slots as well (with Mystic Arcana above that being specifically limited to 1/long rest each). It also takes a very long time to get more than one of each level 6+ spell slot: the second level 6 slot shows up at level 19, and the second level 7 at 20.

Another issue of high-level campaigns is that it gets weird with high-level encounters. I mean, yes, it's cool to fight a proper dragon, or a major demon, or maybe a kraken or something. The problem is that you need to keep fighting those things. And that just feels weird. Once you've defeated Thanos, you shouldn't immediately go after his brother Chanos. As an example, look at the first Critical Role campaign. At level 12, the PCs had defeated the Briarwoods, who had taken over the ancestral lands of one of the PCs. That was a pretty satisfying climax. But after that, they needed two more arcs, first the struggle against the Chroma Conclave (which featured four souped-up ancient dragons – they had apparently fought one earlier), and then trying to stop Vecna's ascension and beseeching gods for help with that. To me, those arcs felt kind of tacked on, and most combats felt like they took forever.

 

[OB1]

Yes.

My campaigns tend to go to level 20, so that's a big reason for me.

But more importantly, the higher levels also help guide the fiction for players who never get that high. They still look ahead and see what powers they will have some day and aspire to get there. It sparks the imagination of new players just picking up a PHB.

IMO, it would be a huge mistake to reduce the number of levels presented in the core book.

 

[rmcoen]

TL; DR = My campaign stops level up at 5, or 8.

In my previous campaign, 4e, we took the characters from 1st to 28th (aiming for 30th, but they didn't quite make it by the final battle). Whatever else you might say about 4e, I found it was pretty balanced at all levels of play, between PCs and PvE. (Although we did "hurry up" some encounters by halving monster HP and doubling their damage.)

In my current campaign (5e)... I hard-stopped progression for the world at 5th level. And in answer to a question on the first page of this thread, that means humanoids - with few rare/legendary exceptions - cannot advance... but the dangers in the world are NOT so limited. The starting map for the campaign that was handed to the first level characters included the rough location of an ancient red dragon! This limit applies to "good" and "evil" races alike, with most "normal" people being 2nd or 3rd level (maybe in sidekick classes, not PC classes), while exceptional people hit 4th or 5th.

Certain story triggers were predefined to allow the PCs to "break the mold". Some have been triggered, some have been found and declined (they came with side effects), and some haven't been found; the PCs are all 8th level right now, except one who was willing to risk the side effects and is now 9th level.

(Having said that, when characters would otherwise "level up", I have rewarded them with bonus feats, or additional powers. Likewise, many NPCs the party encounters have the benefit of an extra "feat" to reflect experience and training. The Royal Guard might be only 4th level, but they have group tactics, battlemaster maneuvers, and multiple Fighting Styles!)

Some NPCs in the world "get around" the limitation by multiclassing. For example, one foe they faced was the Swamp Witch, a Sorcerer 5 / Druid 5. An important ally/rival of one PC is a Bard 4 / Rogue 3. (Both NPCs have, for Story reasons, also qualified for one of those aforementioned mold-breaking triggers.)

I imagine the PCs will probably finish the campaign - sandbox, so "finish" is "let's move on" - around 10th level maybe 11th... with lots of bonus feats and powers, and a handful of side effects from the crazy and warping things they've dealt with. But at the current level of play the martials are crushing single-target damage, the casters provide "outside the box" tools and solutions, and low-ish HP keeps everything dangerous. It seems to be the perfect mix. (And I don't have to worry about teleport or forcecage or or or or!)

 

[TwoSix]

TL; DR = My campaign stops level up at 5, or 8.

In my previous campaign, 4e, we took the characters from 1st to 28th (aiming for 30th, but they didn't quite make it by the final battle). Whatever else you might say about 4e, I found it was pretty balanced at all levels of play, between PCs and PvE. (Although we did "hurry up" some encounters by halving monster HP and doubling their damage.)

In my current campaign (5e)... I hard-stopped progression for the world at 5th level. And in answer to a question on the first page of this thread, that means humanoids - with few rare/legendary exceptions - cannot advance... but the dangers in the world are NOT so limited. The starting map for the campaign that was handed to the first level characters included the rough location of an ancient red dragon! This limit applies to "good" and "evil" races alike, with most "normal" people being 2nd or 3rd level (maybe in sidekick classes, not PC classes), while exceptional people hit 4th or 5th.

Certain story triggers were predefined to allow the PCs to "break the mold". Some have been triggered, some have been found and declined (they came with side effects), and some haven't been found; the PCs are all 8th level right now, except one who was willing to risk the side effects and is now 9th level.

(Having said that, when characters would otherwise "level up", I have rewarded them with bonus feats, or additional powers. Likewise, many NPCs the party encounters have the benefit of an extra "feat" to reflect experience and training. The Royal Guard might be only 4th level, but they have group tactics, battlemaster maneuvers, and multiple Fighting Styles!)

Some NPCs in the world "get around" the limitation by multiclassing. For example, one foe they faced was the Swamp Witch, a Sorcerer 5 / Druid 5. An important ally/rival of one PC is a Bard 4 / Rogue 3. (Both NPCs have, for Story reasons, also qualified for one of those aforementioned mold-breaking triggers.)

I imagine the PCs will probably finish the campaign - sandbox, so "finish" is "let's move on" - around 10th level maybe 11th... with lots of bonus feats and powers, and a handful of side effects from the crazy and warping things they've dealt with. But at the current level of play the martials are crushing single-target damage, the casters provide "outside the box" tools and solutions, and low-ish HP keeps everything dangerous. It seems to be the perfect mix. (And I don't have to worry about teleport or forcecage or or or or!)

Yea, I love everything about this. Diegetic triggers for advancement, as well as rewards, creates far more impactful play to me than just "gain another level."