D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Minigiant]

I wonder if high level D&D were played more if PCs, NPCs, and monsters where just limited to a few things.

I like the idea from Daggerheart where you got cards and as you leveled you replace low level cards with high level cards. And some cards are simple like add your Agility to Armor.

Or like 13th Age where high level casters lose their low level slots. So a 15th level wizard would only have 9th, 8th, and 7th level slots. So if you really wanted to have mage armor at the very high levels you would be casting it as a seventh level spell and using up one of your spells known on a first level spell.

 

[kigmatzomat]

5E is the least offensive game of the WotC era in this regard IMO. Characters are generally simpler, the math is flatter, and monsters don't tend to be particularly complex.

I think it is a cop out to just say "it's too hard."

Agreed. 5e makes it easiest (with the possible exception of 4e, which I barely played)

• melees have enough oomph to make up for the casters being nerfed
• short+long rests provide a way for characters to heal 150% of their hit points per day, every day, without magic.
• casters have the least number of castings/day
• very few spells can be layered up because of Concentration
• hit point inflation means it takes numerous spells to kill enemies
• Legendary defenses mean it takes casting multiple save-or-suck spells to before you land one.

 

[kigmatzomat]

the higher the level, the more options players have "do I use one of the 15 wands I have, or the boots of smiting, or or or or...
every player doing this makes it tedious and painful...

Fifteen wands? Players should have 1 wand. Or maybe its 1 sack of wands.

Let me check the books....OH WAIT, WE CAN'T.

I wrote this earlier earlier. With no guidance on magic items/wealth by level, GMs have to wing it, and when they get it wrong it's their own fault.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Fifteen wands? Players should have 1 wand. Or maybe its 1 sack of wands.

Let me check the books....OH WAIT, WE CAN'T.

I wrote this earlier earlier. With no guidance on magic items/wealth by level, GMs have to wing it, and when they get it wrong it's their own fault.

Perhaps a GM can check out the Starting at Higher Level section and read the Starting Equipment table on p38 of the 2014 DMG then extrapolate accordingly.

 

[Reynard]

Perhaps a GM can check out the Starting at Higher Level section and read the Starting Equipment table on p38 of the 2014 DMG then extrapolate accordingly.

Flag on the play. We know no one reads the DMG and therefore it's a foul to suggest doing so.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Perhaps a GM can check out the Starting at Higher Level section and read the Starting Equipment table on p38 of the 2014 DMG then extrapolate accordingly.

Noe that you point it out, I remember seeing this. To be honest, I thought this was something I saw in a 3rd party product. The "higher level" section is not listed in the main index in ddb so I couldn't find it again.

Why did I think it was a 3rd party product?

Well, it says that <=10th level characters shouldn't have ANY permanent magic items except in high magic games. And outside a "high magic" game, even 20th level characters should only have 3 permanent magic items. (Assuming cash is for scrolls and they don't count against the item totals)

If most people never get above 10th level,then by this, most people have never received a single magic item.

This table doesn't even align with WotC published adventures. I have Princes of the Apocalypse (published 2015).

It has

• 2 Legendary
• 1 Very Rare
• 10 Rare
• 16 Uncommon permanent magic items.

These are rings, wands, weapons, etc. Durable items, not consumables. I didn't bother tallying the numerous potions & scrolls or semi-cursed items.

I mean, according to this table even in a "high magic" setting, a party of five 15th level PCs would need no more than 15 uncommon and 5 rare items. This adventure path has clearly enough loot here for more like 8-12 PCs.

Or.....that table is hot garbage.

Edits:typos. So many typos.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Noe that you point it out, I remember seeing this. To be honest, I thought this was something I saw in a 3rd party product. The "higher level" section is not listed in the main index in ddb so I couldn't find it again.

Why did I think it was a 3rd party product?

Well, it says that <=10th level characters shouldn't have ANY permanent magic items except in high magic games. And outside a "high magic" game, even 20th level characters should only have 3 permanent magic items. (Assuming cash is for scrolls and they don't count against the item totals)

If most people never get above 10th level,then by this, most people have never received a single magic item.

This table doesn't even align with WotC published adventures. I have Princes of the Apocalypse (published 2015).

It has

• 2 Legendary
• 1 Very Rare
• 10 Rare
• 16 Uncommon permanent magic items.

These are rings, wands, weapons, etc. Durable items, not consumables. I didn't bother tallying the numerous potions & scrolls or semi-cursed items.

I mean, according to this table even in a "high magic" setting, a party of five 15th level PCs would need no more than 15 uncommon and 5 rare items. This adventure path has clearly enough loot here for more like 8-12 PCs.

Or.....that table is hot garbage.

Edits:typos. So many typos.

Published adventures don’t always align with how the DMG tells us to run Ability checks either but… that’s another thread.

Apparently, the designers thought the topic of magic item distribution needed more coverage beyond that limited info given in the DMG. There’s a table in Xanathar’s (p 135) entitled Magic Items Awarded by Tier. And this sidebar on the next page (FWIW, a similar sidebar appears in the 2024 DMG):

Are Magic Items Necessary in a Campaign?​

The D&D game is built on the assumption that magic items appear sporadically and that they are always a boon, unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.

Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and no NPCs capable of casting magic weapon. Having no magic makes it extremely difficult for a party to overcome monsters that have resistances or immunity to nonmagical damage. In such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weapons or else avoid using such monsters.

 

[Minigiant]

One bad but popular DMing advice is to flood the high level party with magic items to cover for the martials having too few combat options, too few non-combat options, and too many saving throw weaknesses.

Basically creating martial Xmas trees to make up simplistic old school design without escalation of base stats.

 

[Maxperson]

Noe that you point it out, I remember seeing this. To be honest, I thought this was something I saw in a 3rd party product. The "higher level" section is not listed in the main index in ddb so I couldn't find it again.

Why did I think it was a 3rd party product?

Well, it says that <=10th level characters shouldn't have ANY permanent magic items except in high magic games. And outside a "high magic" game, even 20th level characters should only have 3 permanent magic items. (Assuming cash is for scrolls and they don't count against the item totals)

If most people never get above 10th level,then by this, most people have never received a single magic item.

This table doesn't even align with WotC published adventures. I have Princes of the Apocalypse (published 2015).

It has

• 2 Legendary
• 1 Very Rare
• 10 Rare
• 16 Uncommon permanent magic items.

These are rings, wands, weapons, etc. Durable items, not consumables. I didn't bother tallying the numerous potions & scrolls or semi-cursed items.

I mean, according to this table even in a "high magic" setting, a party of five 15th level PCs would need no more than 15 uncommon and 5 rare items. This adventure path has clearly enough loot here for more like 8-12 PCs.

Or.....that table is hot garbage.

Edits:typos. So many typos.

Published settings put too many magic items in them, probably so that DMs of those tables that like that many won't have put items in. DMs who want less can easily reduce the numbers with almost no effort.

You can't use published adventures as any sort of indication for how many items should be handed out.

 

[nevin]

Fifteen wands? Players should have 1 wand. Or maybe its 1 sack of wands.

Let me check the books....OH WAIT, WE CAN'T.

I wrote this earlier earlier. With no guidance on magic items/wealth by level, GMs have to wing it, and when they get it wrong it's their own fault.

Just like in anything else you do in life? Enough Drama already. It's how GM's learn even at lower levels. Sure at lower levels you've got more guidance but that doesn't help when your table doesn't like what you do. Doesn't help when you want to do something not standard or the players go off the rails. That's the life of the GM. It's why there are never enough GM's. It's almost as stressful running low level games as a new GM as it is running High level games as an experienced GM. Too many magic items easy enough to deal with. Not enough even easier. This is just a Tempest in a Teacup.