I remember reading that shortly after it came out. It is hard to convey how significant it was for gaming culture at the time. I haven't read that one in over thirty years but about ten years ago I re-read the Dark Elf trilogy. I won't don't want to color your opinion so I won't say much, but one observation I had was how TSR at that time seemed to equivocate a lot on how much D&D terminology should be present in the world for the characters (and it leads to some unusual dialogue in places)
This thread is revealing a significant lack of awareness about all the rich and varied fantasy literature that is available today. It is a far more diverse genre than when I was a teen. I just bought The House in the Cerulean Sea as part of a gift basket for an ailing student; it is a best seller with tens of thousands of rave reviews. Legends and Lattes is basically "D&D: the Aftermath." The Dungeon Crawl Carl series is like Diablo meets Discworld meets Hitchhiker's Guide, and so on.
And the classics remain the classics - I've supervised two extended essays on LotR in the past two years. IMO, the genre has never been healthier.
Honestly, a lot of this thread reads like old fogeys complaining that kids these days don't know what real music is.
OK so I've now heard Dungeon Crawler Carl a number of times over the last few years, but your likening of it to Discworld has piqued my interest. Could anyone familiar with the series elaborate on it a little?
Honestly, a lot of this thread reads like old fogeys complaining that kids these days don't know what real music is.
I guess that's an easy trap to fall into: "stuff was better back in my day!" I certainly didn't grow up with Conan (I did grow up reading Discworld!), I only went back to read stuff like Conan and Elric when I got interested in TTRPGs as more than a casual hobby, got interested in the history etc., and I wanted to read some of the stuff that originally inspired it.
Personally, I don't think they're better than modern offerings- but I do have an appreciation for the stuff that gave rise to the things we now enjoy. Looking down through the "on the shoulders of giants" line of history.
But again, I guess that's leaning towards more of a historian point of view; should modern audiences HAVE to read the originals? No! Folks' time is limited, let them read what interests them, and we should enjoy the product of advancements in the genre, again "standing on the shoulders of giants."
Honestly it's enough for me that folk are writing/reading/enjoying fantasy fiction... I'm kind of jealous, I grapple with ADHD-media addiction tendencies, smartphones n social media capitalizing my time over reading books. Blah. That's a whole tangent, and I guess exposes my personal gripes with modern issues
I do enjoy going back and reading Conan stories, they're short enough that they tend to be an afternoon read and some of them really seem to have influenced early DnD adventure creation, Queen of the Black Coast reads like a dnd adventure where you explore a lost ruin.
Yeah, though in reality it's a case of old fogeys not knowing what kids these days are reading. I'm one of those old fogeys (and I'm only 45!), I just don't know what is being released nowadays so I go back to older authors that I know I enjoy. I used to browse secondhand book stores a lot more often and pick up interesting books but I haven't done that in a while and when I do, they don't seem to have the range that they used to have when it comes to fantasy.
This thread is revealing a significant lack of awareness about all the rich and varied fantasy literature that is available today. It is a far more diverse genre than when I was a teen. I just bought The House in the Cerulean Sea as part of a gift basket for an ailing student; it is a best seller with tens of thousands of rave reviews. Legends and Lattes is basically "D&D: the Aftermath." The Dungeon Crawl Carl series is like Diablo meets Discworld meets Hitchhiker's Guide, and so on.
I am sure some of it is we are just old and our tastes have set to a certain extent (when I was a kid, I loved extreme music like death metal, but there was no way on earth my father would have been equipped to appreciate that after building his taste around things like The Doors and Fleetwood Mac; and my grandfather listened to Italian opera and music from the 40s). Some of this is just natural generational stuff that happens, and I can admit, within the past ten years or so, I have found myself, like a lot of gamers my age to be in old man territory (our tastes went pretty quickly from being cool to being old fashioned). Some people keep up more with change in media, others don't as much
I find though a big part of what is going on is really more about the sheer volume of stuff available now, and how boutique it can be. If you like books about very specific things, chances are high you can find a whole subgenre dedicated to that and if you google it or search on amazon, you might be overwhelmed by the selection. It can be really hard to know what is good, or where to begin
For me my tastes have both shifted and at times stayed the same. When it comes to fantasy and science fiction, I do find I just have more of a reaction to earlier material these days. Sometimes I will encounter something new that stands out to me or fits my taste, but a lot of it probably reads to me the way death metal sounded to my dad. With horror I must admit I just like classics more than contemporary. Even in the 80s and 90s, while I read a lot of contemporary horror, I never enjoyed it as much as stuff like Poe, Stoker, Shelley, Lovecraft, etc. Something about the classics in that genre for me. These days I am more inclined when I spend time reading for pleasure, to read something that is either a bit more classic or translations of wuxia literature. A lot of the time though I am probably reading history books more than anything else.
Legends and Lattes is basically "D&D: the Aftermath." The Dungeon Crawl Carl series is like Diablo meets Discworld meets Hitchhiker's Guide, and so on.
I read the first 30 pages or so of Legends and Lattes. I was just curious after it became the subject of conversation. It is definitely not my cup of tea but I will say, to bring it back to my comment about Howard's prose, the prose is quite good in my view (at least it is the sort of prose I enjoy when I am reading a book). The writer clearly is good at the craft. To me the issue was more about style and focus not appealing to me than the book not being well written. I do think there is a difference between something being badly written and simply not appealing to my tastes or sensibilities. And I think a lot of times people get so caught up in the conversations around cultural issues they can't put that aside and look at the work to genuinely judge the writing. Legends and Lattes is a case in point where I can't fault that writer after reading the prose because I'd give my pinky to be able to write that way. I just didn't like the focus, but that is personal taste, not about the writing or quality of the work. Star Wars Aftermath, I found harder to enjoy because the prose itself was difficult (I did finish Aftermath but my interest in the rest of the series was kind of done in by the writing style).
I used to browse secondhand book stores a lot more often and pick up interesting books but I haven't done that in a while and when I do, they don't seem to have the range that they used to have when it comes to fantasy.
Definitely, I will often read digital copies as well. Often the digital copies are around the same cost as the physical book from a secondhand store and they have the benefit of being downloaded directly. Kind of a shame though, I have an easier time browsing book stores than digital stores.
Edit: As an example I'd like a Conan fan to maybe list some stories that aren't or at the least are less problematic... or even stories of Conan by other authors that don't contain any of those elements... and yet anytime there's an inkling of discussing this aspect of the author and his stories there's this rush by certain posters/Howard fans to shut it down which in turn just makes me more confident there isn't much there worth reading at all.
I dont find REH's writing any more racist than that of Tolkien and yet it seems that people convieniently overlook the depictions in Tolkien, celebrating Middlearth as foundational to the genre, when it is much a stereotypical pastiche as Hyborian Age. Not to forgive REH, he was certainly an Anglo-Supremacist with distasteful views, but they werent unusual for the era and can be found in a whole lot of writing, its just so happens he was writing real world pastiche and so those tropes are a bit more blatantly obvious.
Anyway
1 - 4 "The Tower of the Elephant", "The God in the Bowl" and "Rogues in the House" have practically no racism beyond the standard archaic pastiche setting. "The Frost Giants Daughter" isnt overtly racist either beyond the treatment of frost giants
5 "The People of the Black Circle" (1934) - set in fictional north india. Conan does lead a stereotypical Afghuli tribe and faces treachery and intrigue from many including the Devi Yasmina, who is a strong-willed and capable leader, even if she eventually needs saving. The Black Seers (sorcerers) are depicted as formidable and decadent, but not racially evil.
6. "Beyond the Black River" (1935) - features the picts as brutal savages in a clash of barbarism v civilization
7. "The Queen of the Black Coast" (1934) - the black corsairs who follow Bêlit are fierce and loyal warriors who respect their pirate queen Belit and Conan fights with them as an equal. The depictions of their kushite enemies is a but off at times however.
8. "Red Nails" (1936) - Features a lost city divided between two warring factions (brown coded). The focus is human cruelty rather than race
I remember reading that shortly after it came out. It is hard to convey how significant it was for gaming culture at the time. I haven't read that one in over thirty years but about ten years ago I re-read the Dark Elf trilogy. I won't don't want to color your opinion so I won't say much, but one observation I had was how TSR at that time seemed to equivocate a lot on how much D&D terminology should be present in the world for the characters (and it leads to some unusual dialogue in places)
It's strange coming into it as a guy in his 40s in 2025. And I understand it was written for a different audience in a different time, but it feels uncomfortable. I guess in a different way than reading HP Lovecraft or Robert E Howard, because this is recent by comparison.
I've only read the first two books, but the female characters are definitely lacking.
It's also uncomfortable how often Drizzt is referred to as "black" and treated differently.
Like having wizards wanting to take a sample of his skin to see why it's black. Being brought in to a wizard commune to be quizzed about his exotic culture, more like an exhibit than a person. About not being allowed into cities, when the good-aligned queen says "you know, it would just look bad" and he's essentially okay about it. Discussion of his people being slaves.
I can't help but think "yeah, this has aged poorly."
Reading Icewind Dale has essentially been the example I needed to see the racism and misogyny in D&D's history that I thought was being blown out of proportion in recent years.
I started reading it for its historic value to the hobby and for a light-hearted adventure story. Now, I don't know if I'm going to finish the trilogy or find something else.
It's strange coming into it as a guy in his 40s in 2025. And I understand it was written for a different audience in a different time, but it feels uncomfortable. I guess in a different way than reading HP Lovecraft or Robert E Howard, because this is recent by comparison.
I've only read the first two books, but the female characters are definitely lacking.
It's also uncomfortable how often Drizzt is referred to as "black" and treated differently.
Like having wizards wanting to take a sample of his skin to see why it's black. Being brought in to a wizard commune to be quizzed about his exotic culture, more like an exhibit than a person. About not being allowed into cities, when the good-aligned queen says "you know, it would just look bad" and he's essentially okay about it. Discussion of his people being slaves.
I can't help but think "yeah, this has aged poorly."
Reading Icewind Dale has essentially been the example I needed to see the racism and misogyny in D&D's history that I thought was being blown out of proportion in recent years.
I started reading it for its historic value to the hobby and for a light-hearted adventure story. Now, I don't know if I'm going to finish the trilogy or find something else.
I think to Salvatore’s credit, his characterizations and just his writing in general improved a lot over the course of the years writing the character.
