D&D General No One Reads Conan Now -- So What Are They Reading?

[TwoSix]

Something that might interest you professionally is the growth of Web Novels. These feel very similar to pulp IMO. There is a whole genre of it in China that has been translated into English (and a lot of it is xianxia but some of it is very reminiscent of the LitRPG stuff people have discussed as it will sometimes use terms borrowed from video games)

I would agree that the combination of web serials (with sites like AO3, Royal Road, and Wattpad) and Kindle Unlimited is where the chaotic energy is for fantasy fiction these days.

 

[Clint_L]

The market in fantasy really seemed to shift towards "doorstopper" long series in the '90s; which didn't work in the favor of Moorcock or other authors whose work was more experimental and not focused around a single main character in a linear narrative arc.

I think this shift began more in the 80s but otherwise agree with you. Though when I think of "doorstopper" fantasy I don't think so much of long series as large volumes, and I think most of these were the direct consequence of the massive popularity of Tolkien in the 1970s. It is almost impossible to overstate the impact of The Lord of the Rings on fantasy, in terms of both content and publishing patterns. I can't think of another novel that so completely influenced an entire genre. Maybe Frankenstein, but in a very different way (thematically rather than directly in terms of plot and character, and not at all in terms of publishing).

It was LotR that turned fantasy from a niche genre into a publishing powerhouse.

 

[Clint_L]

Another shift that we should consider, when comparing pulp fantasy to contemporary fantasy, is the absolutely massive shift in its audience. Pulp fantasy like Howard's was aimed pretty much entirely at young, white, cisgender men. There were exceptions, but they were notable. Contemporary fantasy has a much more diverse audience, and cisgender white dudes like me are (almost certainly) now a minority audience for the genre. Probably substantially in the minority. This has inevitable consequences on who is writing and what is being published.

 

[TwoSix]

I think this shift began more in the 80s but otherwise agree with you. Though when I think of "doorstopper" fantasy I don't think so much of long series as large volumes, and I think most of these were the direct consequence of the massive popularity of Tolkien in the 1970s. It is almost impossible to overstate the impact of The Lord of the Rings on fantasy, in terms of both content and publishing patterns. I can't think of another novel that so completely influenced an entire genre. Maybe Frankenstein, but in a very different way (thematically rather than directly in terms of plot and character, and not at all in terms of publishing).

It was LotR that turned fantasy from a niche genre into a publishing powerhouse.

Sure. And it was that massive popularity that had Random House spin up Del Rey, which published Sword of Shannara in '77 and proved the popularity of long series, changing a breakthrough into a new format for the genre.

 

[Dioltach]

Sure. And it was that massive popularity that had Random House spin up Del Rey, which published Sword of Shannara in '77 and proved the popularity of long series, changing a breakthrough into a new format for the genre.

I was about to mention this. Shannara is the series that codified the tropes of what became the fantasy genre. Up to and including the notion of trilogies.

People disparage Shannara, but they don't recognise that it's similarities to LotR are what created fantasy as a genre.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Thanks! The local library seems well stocked. They have several, including the first book of Lankhmar.

Libraries rock, that's probably the best possible introduction - certainly you'll know if it's for you or not!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

People disparage Shannara, but they don't recognise that it's similarities to LotR are what created fantasy as a genre.

They disparage it because it's not got much to offer that earlier and later works don't offer better versions of. I don't think that's unfair. Books can be historically important without necessarily being terribly worth reading (indeed as we have discussed in this thread).

Further it is I think at least somewhat fair to say that Shannara is the ne plus ultra of LotR derivative-ness, in that it is literally inspired by what was once a common odd interpretation/misunderstanding of LotR, that being that LotR was set in a post-apocalyptic future, rather than in a mythic quasi-past as Tolkien actually intended. This might seem like a strange notion, but it was certainly the case, in the 1950s through 1970s and indeed was discussed in the BBC documentary series The Worlds of Fantasy (2008), which unfortunately does not seem to be available anywhere (except perhaps in Tortuga, as it were)

As for Shannara single-handedly establishing doorstopper fantasy as a genre, I've never heard that claim before, but the timing more or less works, so I can't say it's implausible. If you across any articles discussing that aspect of things, I'd very interested to read them, because I'm generally interested in the history of the fantasy genre!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You can't have Sephiroth without Elric, and Sephirot basically defines 90% of what weeb girls want yeah.

I feel like most "weebs" (I use the term advisedly, m'lud) aren't reading Western fantasy novels, though, they're watching anime, reading manga/manhwa, and reading translated light novels. There's no real question that from Elric descend many anime/manga characters, though how direct the ancestry is would be interesting to trace.

 

[Umbran]

It was LotR that turned fantasy from a niche genre into a publishing powerhouse.

Indeed. There is a solid argument to be made that there was no "fantasy genre" as such, before Tolkien.

 

[TwoSix]

They disparage it because it's not got much to offer that earlier and later works don't offer better versions of. I don't think that's unfair. Books can be historically important without necessarily being terribly worth reading (indeed as we have discussed in this thread).

Further it is I think at least somewhat fair to say that Shannara is the ne plus ultra of LotR derivative-ness, in that it is literally inspired by what was once a common odd interpretation/misunderstanding of LotR, that being that LotR was set in a post-apocalyptic future, rather than in a mythic quasi-past as Tolkien actually intended. This might seem like a strange notion, but it was certainly the case, in the 1950s through 1970s and indeed was discussed in the BBC documentary series The Worlds of Fantasy (2008), which unfortunately does not seem to be available anywhere (except perhaps in Tortuga, as it were)

As for Shannara single-handedly establishing doorstopper fantasy as a genre, I've never heard that claim before, but the timing more or less works, so I can't say it's implausible. If you across any articles discussing that aspect of things, I'd very interested to read them, because I'm generally interested in the history of the fantasy genre!

This is where I got the info.

The Man Who Invented Fantasy

It seems like elves and wizards have been around forever. But one man is responsible for book publishing’s commitment to the fantasy genre.

slate.com