D&D (2024) D&D Marilith Is Far More Bestial In 2025

The new 2025 Monster Manual has all-new art, and one major change is the depiction of the marilith. Up until now, the marilith has been depicted as a six-armed humanish female from the waist up; while in the 2025 book, the picture is far more bestial in nature.

Not only is the imagery more demonic, it also features the creature in action, simultaneously beheading, stabbing, and entwining its foes with its six arms and snake-like tail.

mariliths.png

Left 2025 Marilith / Right 2014 Marilith
 

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If I'm being totally honest, it's the whole Planescape thing that loses me. I know virtually nothing about Planescape, so anything that appeared in Planescape supplements passed me by. @Kobold Avenger mentioned Armanites. I have no idea what those are. I presume they are a Planescape thing. Same goes for all those source books from the 90's that people point to. Great Modron March? I could not possibly care less to be honest. It's not part of any D&D that I've ever played.

I just so wish that people would keep Planescape out of discussions about the core of the game. We're discussing how Mariliths are presented in Core D&D. How they are presented in a specific setting is only applicable to that setting. Anything that happens in that setting doesn't matter outside that setting as far as core D&D is concerned. We don't insist that all Far Realms creatures are Daelkyr after all. The Shining Host only matters in Eberron. Tiamat is not the Queen of the Abyss, and, outside of Dragonlance, there is no such thing as the "Queen of the Abyss".

So, quoting thirty or forty year old texts at me for how the game "must be" is going to fall on deaf ears. I simply do not buy the idea that anything that is for the Planescape setting has any relevance here. The fact that Planescape material, from what I'm seeing here, is often conflicting means that you can argue pretty much anything and it's still true. That's why I keep sticking to the core books and current books.
 

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If I'm being totally honest, it's the whole Planescape thing that loses me. I know virtually nothing about Planescape, so anything that appeared in Planescape supplements passed me by. @Kobold Avenger mentioned Armanites. I have no idea what those are. I presume they are a Planescape thing. Same goes for all those source books from the 90's that people point to. Great Modron March? I could not possibly care less to be honest. It's not part of any D&D that I've ever played.

I just so wish that people would keep Planescape out of discussions about the core of the game. We're discussing how Mariliths are presented in Core D&D. How they are presented in a specific setting is only applicable to that setting. Anything that happens in that setting doesn't matter outside that setting as far as core D&D is concerned. We don't insist that all Far Realms creatures are Daelkyr after all. The Shining Host only matters in Eberron. Tiamat is not the Queen of the Abyss, and, outside of Dragonlance, there is no such thing as the "Queen of the Abyss".
Armanites are centaur demon things, they appeared in... Some monster manual, somewhere

You can't really keep Planescape out of the discussion when it comes to demons because like... Mariliths aren't presented in Core D&D. Their lore has been tied to Planescape for absolute decades to the point the most generic fluff for them includes the Blood War and everything that entails. Mariliths are basically tied to Planescape at this point.

I know they exist in Eberron, but they've never been giving anything to replace their pre-existing fluff, and nor do I think Eberron Mariliths have ever appeared in anything
 

The Marid in 5e looks feminine to me based on the clothing, even though she doesn't look anything like the 2e Marid. I don't like how Marid appear in 5e either, but at least their MM entry says they have varied appearances, which certainly leaves the room for appearing like the 2e one or the 5e ones and still being Marid.
marid.jpg


This is the Marid from the 2014 Monster Manual. The 2024 one is just as fishy to me. :p
 

Armanites are centaur demon things, they appeared in... Some monster manual, somewhere

You can't really keep Planescape out of the discussion when it comes to demons because like... Mariliths aren't presented in Core D&D. Their lore has been tied to Planescape for absolute decades to the point the most generic fluff for them includes the Blood War and everything that entails. Mariliths are basically tied to Planescape at this point.

I know they exist in Eberron, but they've never been giving anything to replace their pre-existing fluff, and nor do I think Eberron Mariliths have ever appeared in anything
Wait, what? Mariliths very much predate anything Planescape and are very much part of Core D&D.
 

This is the other problem I have with these discussions. Everyone wants to cherry pick which edition they want to talk from. @Alzrius talks about "positive energy". That doesn't exist in 5e. There's no positive material plane in 5e. That's been gone from D&D for a long time. Cure Wounds? That affects ANY creature. Full stop. Welcome to 2024. Has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of energy.

Now, since there have been changes to the game over the years, why would people insist on lore that's no longer relevant?
 

Now, since there have been changes to the game over the years, why would people insist on lore that's no longer relevant?
The lore might be no longer relevant to everyone who participates in D&D, but it's still relevant to a few for a number of reasons. A topic for another thread.
 

You can't really keep Planescape out of the discussion when it comes to demons because like... Mariliths aren't presented in Core D&D. Their lore has been tied to Planescape for absolute decades to the point the most generic fluff for them includes the Blood War and everything that entails. Mariliths are basically tied to Planescape at this point.
Huh? Type V Demons are in Eldritch Wizardy, and then in the AD&D Monster Manual, which tells us they are "Marilith, etc".

The DMG then lists 4 names (in Appendix E): Aishapra, Kevokuli, Marilith, Rehnaremme. Type V Demons also appear in Appendix C, on the Monster Level VIII encounter chart.

I'm not across the 2nd ed AD&D treatment, but the 3E Monster Manual also has them (with "Type V" abandoned, and Marilith changed from a proper name to a generic term). It describes them as "generals and tacticians", but there is no reference to the Blood War that I can see. They are in the 4e MM, again without reference to the Blood War: as far as I know, the first reference to the Blood War in 4e is in a sidebar on p 89 of the Manual of the Planes.

So I would say that Mariliths/Type V demons absolutely are present in core D&D, and are not especially tied to Planescape.
 

The lore might be no longer relevant to everyone who participates in D&D, but it's still relevant to a few for a number of reasons. A topic for another thread.
And, yes, I can see that. But, the topic it hand is the new Monster Manual's depiction of Mariliths. The only reason I can see that kinda makes sense is if people are insisting that older canon from earlier editions must be adhered to. Granted, whether or not it was canon is a bit of a wobbly premise, but, that's about the only justification that I can see.

Well, other than the GIANT elephant in the room, but, let's not go there.

But since the lore around virtually everything in the game has shifted over the years, much of it contradictory, appeals to tradition don't seem like they'd be terribly strong arguments.
 

This is the other problem I have with these discussions. Everyone wants to cherry pick which edition they want to talk from. @Alzrius talks about "positive energy". That doesn't exist in 5e. There's no positive material plane in 5e. That's been gone from D&D for a long time. Cure Wounds? That affects ANY creature. Full stop. Welcome to 2024. Has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of energy.

Now, since there have been changes to the game over the years, why would people insist on lore that's no longer relevant?

Despite your numerous posts to the contrary, there are different ways to describe things that come from the same entry in D&D. Some people will have dog headed kobolds and some people will have lizard/draconic ones. When you say 'demons don't have biology', that's not supported by...I don't think by a single edition of D&D. And suggesting that 'balor aren't described as having a gender' is rather meaningless, given that humans (under the entry of 'Men') are also not described as having a gender in the MM. Mermen are though. Furthermore, several demons are mentioned as enjoying certain things to eat, but Men again, lack that mention. If one were to follow the MM, it is humans that have neither gender nor the ability to eat, while the so called fiends possess both.

As for why people insist on lore that is older, common lore is what has made D&D a shared universe. Did Tenser like your party? Did you guys end up angrier at Toves than the armanite? What happened when your party found the Wand of Orcus? It's the same as people who prefer the Silver Age of comic books or the Star Wars novels of the 90s or old Babysitters' Club books to their modern counterparts. Having shared in the experience, discussion of its lore, the what ifs and might have beens, the parts you enjoyed, the parts you didn't, etc, builds a community around that commonality. This is such a basic human social concept, it is almost mind boggling that one would not understand (or pretend so) how it works. It isn't just entertainment. Religious groups, military units, speakers of a given language, amateur scientists of the 15th century and probably millions more go through the same thing.

As the lore grows, there are those who like the new ideas and adopt them, there are those that try to reconcile the old with the new and there are those who reject the new lore. Sometimes that causes a schism, sometimes it causes subgroups that coexist, sometimes it leads to a power struggle with winners and losers. Depending on how the lore is grown, it might be done carefully with respect given to the past lore, or it might be done carefully with no respect given to past lore.

So the marilith has changed. I know nothing more than the art OP posted, which I didn't care for. It suggests a change in the lore. People should have thoughts on that, whether they like it or not. If they don't, it doesn't bode well for the D&D community of this era. Discussion and debate are how the communities thrive. It spurs creative storytelling that improves the experience far past the table and game session.

But sure, I suppose some deviants are just angry because there are no snake demon boobs.
 

This is the other problem I have with these discussions. Everyone wants to cherry pick which edition they want to talk from. @Alzrius talks about "positive energy". That doesn't exist in 5e. There's no positive material plane in 5e.
You are wrong about that.

The Positive Plane exists in 5e, I'm looking at the entry about that plane on page 208 of the 2024 DMG.

It's different from 2e and 3e in that it's been separated from the Inner Planes as an all encompassing plane around the rest of the multiverse.
 

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