WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

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In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.
 

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Although is he saying shrinking as sales decline, or growth is slowing down, or as the size of its market domination? Cause from this thread, I’d say his sales data and comparison is about as flawed as anyone else’s without knowing the true sales data from wotc.
 

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Questing Beast posted a one hour interview with Mike Mearls. What's interesting is that very early on Mearls elaborates a bit more a bit on the 4e and WoW connection. It was not about making WoW as a TTRPG. It was not about aggro mechanics or anything like that. He says that it was more about being a game that would be super easy to get into and focus on the "fun" of the game, which was "fighting monsters, getting treasure, and speaking in funny voices."
I think this is a really important point. Since the beginning, the devs for 4E were talking about "getting to the fun" and "15 minutes of fun in a four-hour session." I think there was a lot of discussion of getting some of that feeling of dropping to the fun parts right away.

Because if the goal of 4E was to make it play like an MMO, it didn't hit that mark at all. At the time when this was discussed, I asked "Where's the MMO that plays like this? I want to play it!" ... and there really wasn't one.

The only cRPG that I've played that is similar to 4E is Pillars of Eternity. I recently loaded that game up again because of talk about Avowed. And that's a game that has encounter (i.e., per battle) powers, and daily ones as well. It's about the only game I can think of that does this.

There is a huge difference between that feeling of "Let's get to the fun stuff!" and "Let's make a tabletop MMO." I have seen some RPGs that try to mimic cooldown mechanics, the most infamous one being Warhammer 3E, but you don't see that almost anywhere. And similarly, I would really struggle to think of an RPG with combats where there's no carryover from encounter to encounter (although some are trying for this).

Mike can, of course, come in and say, "You're 100% wrong" here, but I get the impression from playing 4E that it was trying to get to a lot of the feel of playing an online game but not necessarily being mechanically identical. Because as someone who plays a lot of online games, it didn't play the same.
 
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Questing Beast posted a one hour interview with Mike Mearls. What's interesting is that very early on Mearls elaborates a bit more a bit on the 4e and WoW connection. It was not about making WoW as a TTRPG. It was not about aggro mechanics or anything like that. He says that it was more about being a game that would be super easy to get into and focus on the "fun" of the game, which was "fighting monsters, getting treasure, and speaking in funny voices."
This is a point I keep trying to make. 4e is the Organized Play edition. Which means that it shares a parallel evolution with the requirements of mmo games.
 

This is not the death of Dungeons and Dragons as it is THE TTRPG. 5.5 edition might not have as many players, but earlier editions will carry on.
 

This is not the death of Dungeons and Dragons as it is THE TTRPG. 5.5 edition might not have as many players, but earlier editions will carry on.

We don't know what the trajectory of DnD's sales are and we likely will never know given all of the changes. I'd be surprised if there were not a post-COVID slowdown but whether that's a slowdown in growth or fewer people buying new books we just don't know. All we do know is that it's still dominating the major VTTs. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think we should be writing any eulogies either.
 


We don't know what the trajectory of DnD's sales are and we likely will never know given all of the changes. I'd be surprised if there were not a post-COVID slowdown but whether that's a slowdown in growth or fewer people buying new books we just don't know. All we do know is that it's still dominating the major VTTs. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think we should be writing any eulogies either.

Apparently sales are down on books can. New phb apparently is being outsold by Tashas.

How reliable that is idk as I haven't seen the it myself.

My expectation is 5.5 won't hit the heights of 5.0 regardless just because it's a revision. Generally it's better than 5.0 problem is it's not that different so if 5E is starting to get boring 5.5 probably won't excite you.
 
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Apparently sales are down on books can. New phb apparently is being outsold by Tashas.

How reliable that is idk as I haven't seen the it myself.

My expectation is 5.5 won't hit the heights of 5.0 regardless just because it's a revision. Generally it's better than 5.0 problem is it's not that different so if 5E is starring to get boring 5.5 probably won't excite you.

There have been changes to the classification of the game which at the very least affected sales records on Amazon, Wizards is now selling books directly, we don't know how many people are simply waiting for current campaigns to end and the book scan data validity has also been questioned. But we also don't know how many people aren't buying the books and going solely digital.

I guess I don't care unless I can't find players and that wasn't an issue when the game was far less popular so I'm not too concerned.
 

There have been changes to the classification of the game which at the very least affected sales records on Amazon, Wizards is now selling books directly, we don't know how many people are simply waiting for current campaigns to end and the book scan data validity has also been questioned. But we also don't know how many people aren't buying the books and going solely digital.

I guess I don't care unless I can't find players and that wasn't an issue when the game was far less popular so I'm not too concerned.

Yeah we don't have much 5o go on except vibes. Vibes are more negative than pre Tashas for example.
 

Yeah we don't have much 5o go on except vibes. Vibes are more negative than pre Tashas for example.

Vibes on this forum don't mean a lot to me. If you want to try to read tea leaves I won't try to talk you out of it I just don't see the point. I'm hoping we see a few more publications, new book with higher level monsters would be nice for example beyond that I have way to many real world issues to worry about whether other people happen to like something I enjoy. Besides, the number of people playing the game could shrink dramatically and it likely would still be the single most played game out there.
 

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