WotC Mike Mearls: "D&D Is Uncool Again"

In Mike Mearls' recent interview with Ben Riggs, he talks about how he feels that Dungeons & Dragons has had its moment, and is now uncool again. Mearls was one of the lead designers of D&D 5E and became the franchise's Creative Director in 2018. He worked at WotC until he was laid off in 2023. He is now EP of roleplaying games at Chaosium, the publisher of Call of Chulhu.

My theory is that when you look back at the OGL, the real impact of it is that it made D&D uncool again. D&D was cool, right? You had Joe Manganiello and people like that openly talking about playing D&D. D&D was something that was interesting, creative, fun, and different. And I think what the OGL did was take that concept—that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D&D brand because it's a roleplaying game, and I think those two things were sundered. And I don’t know if you can ever put them back together.

I think, essentially, it’s like that phrase: The Mandate of Heaven. I think fundamentally what happened was that Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven—and I don’t see them even trying to get it back.

What I find fascinating is that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that article. This is the same Charlie Hall who wrote glowing reviews of the 5.5 rulebooks. And then, at the same time, he’s now writing, "This is your chance because D&D seems to be stumbling." How do you square that? How do I go out and say, "Here are the two new Star Wars movies. They’re the best, the most amazing, the greatest Star Wars movies ever made. By the way, Star Wars has never been weaker. Now is the time for other sci-fi properties", like, to me that doesn’t make any sense! To me, it’s a context thing again.

Maybe this is the best Player’s Handbook ever written—but the vibes, the audience, the people playing these games—they don’t seem excited about it. We’re not seeing a groundswell of support and excitement. Where are the third-party products? That’s what I'd ask. Because that's what you’d think, "oh, there’s a gap", I mean remember before the OGL even came up, back when 3.0 launched, White Wolf had a monster book. There were multiple adventures at Gen Con. The license wasn’t even official yet, and there were already adventures showing up in stores. We're not seeing that, what’s ostensibly the new standard going forward? If anything, we’re seeing the opposite—creators are running in the opposite direction. I mean, that’s where I’m going.

And hey—to plug my Patreon—patreon.com/mikemearls (one word). This time last year, when I was looking at my post-Wizards options, I thought, "Well, maybe I could start doing 5E-compatible stuff." And now what I’m finding is…I just don’t want to. Like—it just seems boring. It’s like trying to start a hair metal band in 1992. Like—No, no, no. Everyone’s mopey and we're wearing flannel. It's Seattle and rain. It’s Nirvana now, man. It’s not like Poison. And that’s the vibe I get right now, yeah, Poison was still releasing albums in the ’90s. They were still selling hundreds of thousands or a million copies. But they didn’t have any of the energy. It's moved on. But what’s interesting to me is that roleplaying game culture is still there. And that’s what I find fascinating about gaming in general—especially TTRPGs. I don’t think we’ve ever had a period where TTRPGs were flourishing, and had a lot of energy and excitement around them, and D&D wasn’t on the upswing. Because I do think that’s what’s happening now. We’re in very strange waters where I think D&D is now uncool.

 

[occam]

Maybe by now / over a longer timeframe it is, maybe Chris Cocks in a speech is less precise than the WotC press release. There are explanations other than 'it was the best selling book all along, WotC just forgot to mention it'

WotC minion: "Uh, sir, people are questioning the wording of our press release, referring to the Player's Handbook as a 'product' instead of a 'book', and about being the 'fastest-selling' instead of the 'best-selling'. It'd be great if you could clear that up for folks at the earnings call."
Chris Cocks: "Good note, I'll take care of it. Thank you, minion."
Later, at the earnings call...
Chris Cocks: "Both the new Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide [are] breaking records for the best-selling D&D books ever."
WotC skeptics: "Hmm, first it was the fastest-selling product, now it's the best-selling book? Why is WotC being so cagey? What are they trying to hide?!"

It does only matter in so far as WotC apparently cannot call it the fastest selling book in D&D history.

I would have expected a new core PHB to sell better than the second class expansion for 2014, both as a book and as digital. So either it is not selling as well as it 'should' or there is a strong move towards digital.


I cannot rule it out, but I assume they would have said so, if it did. To me they used 'product' for a reason, that was not an accident

WotC announced that the Player's Handbook, which is a book, was the fastest-selling product (a broader category than "book") in D&D history. But you claim, based on nothing at all, that they didn't call the Player's Handbook the fastest-selling "book" because they were trying to trick people somehow.

So, fine, they call the Player's Handbook a "book" at the earnings call. And then you cast doubt on that, too?

Dude, you are really twisting yourself into pretzels to leave open arguments against the obvious meanings of words. You should be careful, you can get stuck doing that.

 

[Zardnaar]

WotC minion: "Uh, sir, people are questioning the wording of our press release, referring to the Player's Handbook as a 'product' instead of a 'book', and about being the 'fastest-selling' instead of the 'best-selling'. It'd be great if you could clear that up for folks at the earnings call."
Chris Cocks: "Good note, I'll take care of it. Thank you, minion."
Later, at the earnings call...
Chris Cocks: "Both the new Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide [are] breaking records for the best-selling D&D books ever."
WotC skeptics: "Hmm, first it was the fastest-selling product, now it's the best-selling book? Why is WotC being so cagey? What are they trying to hide?!"



WotC announced that the Player's Handbook, which is a book, was the fastest-selling product (a broader category than "book") in D&D history. But you claim, based on nothing at all, that they didn't call the Player's Handbook the fastest-selling "book" because they were trying to trick people somehow.

So, fine, they call the Player's Handbook a "book" at the earnings call. And then you cast doubt on that, too?

Dude, you are really twisting yourself into pretzels to leave open arguments against the obvious meanings of words. You should be careful, you can get stuck doing that.

You're neglecting they always use somewhat vague terms and rarely provide solid numbers.

AKA spin. They're not directly lying but they're being very disingenuous with the truth. They like big numbers and often obfuscate them eg including previous editions player's in player counts.

Or D&D beyond. Registered Player's vs active player's.

There nit directly lying as such bit yeah. It's also really obvious.

Spin is often much the same as bull naughty word.

 

[Staffan]

WotC announced that the Player's Handbook, which is a book, was the fastest-selling product (a broader category than "book") in D&D history. But you claim, based on nothing at all, that they didn't call the Player's Handbook the fastest-selling "book" because they were trying to trick people somehow.

Known information: Wizards were pushing the D&D Beyond physical + digital bundles pretty hard, both for individual 5.5e books and for the full set.

Hypothesis: They're counting each digital + physical bundle as two sales, but feel that calling the D&D Beyond sale a "book" is a little iffy, so they're using "product" instead.

 

[Umbran]

I also don't agree with the implication that the audience is always right

I said nothing of the kind. I didn't say it was right.

I said it was well known. You get pushback on open social media. In other news, people who swim in the ocean get wet - film at 11.

It is like you are arguing that, instead of telling people to be careful when they go swimming at the beach, we should instead get the water in the entire ocean to change its basic behavior.

If you want to control how wet you get, you need to do some considered engineering of your water experience - you need a swimming pool, a bathtub, maybe a shower or a bidet, and plumbers to maintain the system

- whatever response they have is free from the same consequences that evidently only the "Names" face.

Well, no, they aren't. They just get less of it.

More to the point, I think scale and context matters. This isn't some billionaire making light of the impact of a missed social security check; this is a D&D nerd, albeit a well-known one, talking about how he thinks D&D should be in a tone that some find off-putting.

1) Please do not refer to real-world politics again in this discussion. Thanks.

2) No, he is not "just a D&D nerd". He's a high-level professional nerd. High-level professionals, if they have a lick of sense, curate their public presentation, and have done so for centuries before the internet was invented.

3) He's a high level professional nerd speaking on the topic of his profession. If a finance exec trash talks the rival of their favorite football team, nobody cares. If they publicly trash-talk the rival to their own financial firm... that's apt to get them fired.

 

[AlViking]

Known information: Wizards were pushing the D&D Beyond physical + digital bundles pretty hard, both for individual 5.5e books and for the full set.

Hypothesis: They're counting each digital + physical bundle as two sales, but feel that calling the D&D Beyond sale a "book" is a little iffy, so they're using "product" instead.

If I buy the latest "Bronies' Best Buddy" book for my kindle I'm not really buying a book?

 

[mamba]

But we don't know that it is even that. He was at Gary Con, a very heavy OSR event, and posted about designers not being willing to put death on the line. Saying that younger players are even okay with that. And that sits poorly with people.

that is not what he wrote, at all, maybe you need to reread the posts. All he said is that there needs to be a certain level of risk of failure, not death, that there needs to be a threat for the game to have meaning for the players

 

[mamba]

WotC announced that the Player's Handbook, which is a book, was the fastest-selling product (a broader category than "book") in D&D history. But you claim, based on nothing at all, that they didn't call the Player's Handbook the fastest-selling "book" because they were trying to trick people somehow.

the ‘nothing at all’ is the fact that they (most likely) intentionally used a different word with a different meaning. You can draw your conclusions if you want, I do not see yours any better supported than mine.

The analog sales in 2024 certainly do not make a significant boost in book sales all that likely, they are 2% lower than for 2023. Your theory would be better supported by an increase, mine matches that data better imo, let’s see if 2025 brings some more clarity

So, fine, they call the Player's Handbook a "book" at the earnings call. And then you cast doubt on that, too?

I said that this does not imply that it was the best selling book all along, they could refer to a different timeframe with Tasha dropping off sooner

 

[mamba]

If I buy the latest "Bronies' Best Buddy" book for my kindle I'm not really buying a book?

no you are not and it will not count towards analog sales, to stay in the WotC categories

 

[TiQuinn]

But this isn't entirely true. I mean, it is largely true of Bluesky in that it was leftish types immigrating from X, but X still has a widish range of perspectives and lots of lefties still there. It has become a lot more rightish, but from what I can tell, still has a much more diverse array of political ideologies represented than Bluesky. It is also still far more a main avenue of communication and news than Bluesky, afaict.

That said, not saying there isn't something to him only posting on X. Not reading into it either way, though.

But I think the larger problem is the "two-sideism," as if his use of "safe" is automatically expressing adherence to one faction. I think we have two very vocal groups fighting two-sideism (be it RPGs or other cultural domains) and everything else gets drowned out. Each of those two sides seems to interpret anything and everything that isn't lock-step as being of the other side. So around and around we go...

Afraid I can’t agree.

 

[Umbran]

It is called being professional. There are a lot of things in my industry that I think are crap but I work to the best of my ability with whatever I have to work with.

And I bet you don't go into specifics about the crap on social media, though. Am I right?

If you act like a professional and have integrity, you can design a great truck even if you do not like trucks.

Maybe. I'd go to a designer who at least wasn't publicly against trucks first, though, unless I had a very specific desire to make a truck-hater's truck.

Heck, I'd expect, in fact, that there's a significant divide and specialization, such that the truck-hating designer would actually be unaware of many of the specific engineering needs of trucks...

People spend way too much time analyzing opinions to filter out folks.

It is exhausting.

There is a significant modern-life skill in picking your battles. If you can't do that, exhaustion quickly follows.