D&D General The First Demise of TSR: Gygax's Folly

I think you believe falsehoods because of the extreme bias I mentioned which you have in favor of Williams.
Kinda weird that failure to hate on Lorraine Williams is an extreme bias in her favor. I'd say that very much emphasizes the typical toxic narrative laid by Gygax's telling of the story and the Gygax loyalists. And, honestly, that's all Snarf has ever asked that we reassess in these posts of his.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Because the post you linked to of mine, without direct reference, was about the podcast. Which you knew, because you had just linked to it without replying to it to start this thread, remember?


Saying "see the record" without linking to the record or referencing a specific part of it isn't a citation. I also said "see the record" and you found that pretty unacceptable, remember?


No, and this is the first time I am calling you a liar. You literally just quoted my post where I explained, in multiple paragraphs, how I am happy to go through all the points made and encourage you to go through them all as well, but I wanted TO START WITH THE FIRST POINT MADE and see if you really were interested in discussing it or just cherry picking.

To which you literally just cherry picked it out of context, again knowing the context was my saying let's do all the points. You cannot have missed it. Which is why I am saying you're lying about what I just did.



No I said you stated a falsehood which I think you believe despite having claimed to have listened to the podcast and heard Rose Estes and others say how shocked they were.

And Rose Estes is not fairly characterized as "someone somewhere" she is a prominent voice on the very podcast you linked to. Nor was she the only one. Are you denying that or do I need to go back to that episode and quote you word for word others before you take responsibility here for stating a falsehood?


Yes we're both referring to the events of the ouster which is directly what Rose Estes says she is shocked about. Those events were so secret at the time that even Gary didn't know it was Williams behind it until it came out in court. Even after the board meeting he still didn't know Williams had bought the Bloome's stock. But you were arguing nobody at TSR was shocked it happened except Gary despite only 6 total people knowing about it in a company of hundreds.


I was obviously referencing the larger company. WHICH YOU KNEW BECAUSE YOU KNEW ROSE ESTES WAS NOT AT THAT BOARD MEETING AND I QUOTED HER REACTION. And your statement never referenced the board meeting either. Indeed, your quote was, "the only person surprised by Gygax's ouster was Gygax. If Gygax had not been ousted, the company would have failed." You're saying the ouster itself, not the the meeting, is your reference. And that it's relevant because of "the company" and not "the board meeting." It's very clear the way you wrote it you're referring to the company at large (it's employees) and their lack of surprise at his ouster from the company. And now you're backtracking to pretend it was just about the board meeting itself (though Gary was still part of the company when he left that meeting, he just wasn't CEO or Chairman).


My man, the only "sources" you've cited were: 1) my post, unattributed, 2) the podcast (which is what my post was in reaction to, in a thread about it), and 3) the book, broadly speaking without specific reference. You claim to have referenced the court transcript, without a link to that or citation to any specific part of it, knowing nobody is just going to go dig that up to serve your demands on that.

So let's talk about it: does the book ever claim nobody at TSR was shocked by Gary's ouster, in contradiction to what Rose Estes said? If so, please name me who is disagreeing in the book with that claim.

Again, once I can pin you down to a non-shifting answer on this first point I am happy to move on to the next one. I'm fine going all the down to the Malcolm Gladwell point, which I again is deeply ironic given your consistent position regarding Williams despite new facts being introduced which should be changing your view if you're willing to objectively re-examine them.
I admire your, uh... fervour... but this is the second time in the past 24 hours I've wandered into a thread and watched you lose your mind on someone. The people you're directing your vitriol towards don't deserve to be treated like this. Everything okay with you?
 

Kinda weird that failure to hate on Lorraine Williams is an extreme bias in her favor.
This. I've also been inexplicably accused of beatifying Williams, apparently because I've pointed out that a lot of the hate directed at her is blatantly sexist (that is inarguable; there are plenty of receipts that I and many others have cited), and because I've argued that in 1985 she saved TSR from immediate collapse, a point that Snarff explains in detail in the OP. Again, I think the historical record is clear: TSR under Gygax was done. If it wasn't Williams, it was bankruptcy.

On a personal level, I have commented that she seems like a rather unpleasant boss and I wouldn't have wanted to work for her, though I note that, according to Ben Riggs in Slaying the Dragon, every single person he interviewed who served under both regimes preferred her leadership to Gygax and the Blumes (possibly on the principle that any leadership is better than no leadership). And she definitely didn't speak nerd or have any passion for our hobby, which I think is an extreme failure if you plan to be successful in a niche industry. So she had big faults. But ousting St. Gary was not one of them. That was all him.
 

So let's talk about it: does the book ever claim nobody at TSR was shocked by Gary's ouster, in contradiction to what Rose Estes said? If so, please name me who is disagreeing in the book with that claim.

It would appear that you did not actually read what I wrote? Because as I wrote, you took a single sentence out of context- I agree that people were surprised, but I was referring to Gygax being the only person surprised at the board meetings. Which is something I have done repeatedly! I assumed you would understand that when I responded to you.

But since you asked, I will show you how it is done.

What does the book say about Rose Estes as an employee of TSR thinking about Gygax's ouster? Nothing. Because Rose Estes wasn't an employee of TSR. As I wrote in my review of the podcast, you always need to make sure you understand the history when you use oral recollections of events from long ago.

Rose Estes was an employee of TSR during the Egbert incident, famously answering the phone when a reporter called in 1979 to ask about a missing boy and replying, "What boy?" (Game Wizards 161-62). Later, she was responsible for the creation of the Endless Quest series in 1981 (modern readers can think of this as Choose Your Own Adventure) that was the beginning of TSR's attempt to diversify into the fiction book market. Id. 216, 225. Rose Estes was offered stock options by TSR, which she sought to exercise in 1982. Id. 230. Despite internal company documents that stated that the Blumes' refusal to honor her stock options was a violation - the Blumes refused, and Gygax reviewed the document that stated that TSR had committed a documented breach to Estes and replied, in writing, that he had confidence in the Blumes. Id.

Estes was far from alone in having stock options that TSR refused to honor (see also, Will Niebling, Mike Carr). Id. 245. But between the stock option rejection and continued issues with the TSR of Gygax and the Blumes, Estes left in 1983. Id. 258. In 1984, Estes filed a lawsuit against TSR over the unpaid and unfulfilled stock options. Id. 285.

After Gygax had full control of TSR, he did nothing to settle the lawsuits- but at the meeting the Gygax (and no one else) claims that Gygax made no type of offer to the Blumes (and after which the Blumes agreed to a severance agreement), Blume was deposed in Estes's lawsuit that Gygax was still fighting. Id. 296.

In 1986, after Lorraine had control of the company, the various lawsuits and liabilities that Gygax and the Blumes had saddled TSR with that screwed over their employees were resolved. Id. 316; accord that podcast. Not all of them despite the effort- Niebling took his case to a deserved court judgment of $1.6 million. Id. Estes returned to TSR in 1986.


So to answer your question in full- please try and read what I wrote. And while I loved Rose Estes, it really helps to remember that she left TSR, and only returned after Gygax was ousted. And the reason she left was because the Blumes, with the full actual knowledge and approval of Gygax, refused to give her what she had been contractually promised. And when Gygax was in full charge ... he continued to fight her attempts to get what she deserved.

If your point is that someone who was badly wronged by the business incompetence of Gygax and only returned to TSR after he left (and had no actual knowledge, as she stated in the podcast) of the board meetings was surprised by his ouster... I am not sure you really want to keep making points. But from now on, please continue to make them without trying to battle over easily verifiable facts. As much as I like history, I do not like ... whatever this is.
 

WHICH YOU KNEW BECAUSE YOU KNEW ROSE ESTES WAS NOT AT THAT BOARD MEETING AND I QUOTED HER REACTION.

Mod note:
You seem to be about half an inch from calling someone a liar to their face, and you're effectively shouting.

If you cannot keep it civil, your civility will be enforced by your non-presence in the discussion. Keep your cool, please.
 

This. I've also been inexplicably accused of beatifying Williams, apparently because I've pointed out that a lot of the hate directed at her is blatantly sexist (that is inarguable; there are plenty of receipts that I and many others have cited), and because I've argued that in 1985 she saved TSR from immediate collapse, a point that Snarff explains in detail in the OP. Again, I think the historical record is clear: TSR under Gygax was done. If it wasn't Williams, it was bankruptcy.
I came under some (mild) fire here for having the temerity to suggest it might be time to reevaluate the legacy of Lorraine Williams. I didn't offer a blanket pardon for her actions as CEO, and at the time I wasn't fully aware of how she took control of TSR, but I thought her role in the story was a little more complicated than playing the villain to Gygax's hero. For a lot of us, I think having a hero and villain is important as it helps us follow a narrative.
. And she definitely didn't speak nerd or have any passion for our hobby, which I think is an extreme failure if you plan to be successful in a niche industry. So she had big faults. But ousting St. Gary was not one of them. That was all him.
I do agree that's a fault. It's a bad sign when the CEO doesn't seem to care about what the company is actually selling.
 

Kinda weird that failure to hate on Lorraine Williams is an extreme bias in her favor. I'd say that very much emphasizes the typical toxic narrative laid by Gygax's telling of the story and the Gygax loyalists. And, honestly, that's all Snarf has ever asked that we reassess in these posts of his.

People can say up and down that Williams on her own made several jaw-droppingly bad decisions post Gygax, but that was just not the time frame for what the When We Were Wizards podcast was covering. What she did later doesn’t justify Gygax’s tenure. There’s enough “bad” to go around.
 

Kinda weird that failure to hate on Lorraine Williams is an extreme bias in her favor. I'd say that very much emphasizes the typical toxic narrative laid by Gygax's telling of the story and the Gygax loyalists. And, honestly, that's all Snarf has ever asked that we reassess in these posts of his.
I am not in any way asking him to hate Williams. I pointed out in the other thread some serious failings of Williams with direct reasons. Snarf then quoted that post by linking to it, then ranted about Revisionist History and how people get stuck thinking something based on rumored conventional wisdom without ever questioning that narrative - clearly in reaction to my post.

He doesn't want people criticizing her. He's effectively saying any criticism of Williams, even well documented criticism directly from the Podcast he and I both listened to, is not just unwarranted but a sign someone is failing to question the Williams narrative from long ago. Which I found pretty insulting since my view of her was not based on some rumors from long ago or some existing zeitgeist, but on the things I directly quoted from the podcast.

I've been really clear I think Gygax is worse than Williams. But equally clear that Williams should also be criticized for many really nasty things she did. Things well documented in the podcast, with direct testimony of people who were there.

Snarf refuses to criticize her, and attacks anyone who does. Like he did with me and the Revisionist History reference.

That's the issue I have. That he can't stand any criticism of Williams and is at best dismissive of it and more often directly aggressive and derisive of it.

And I note the irony of it - he bashes be with that rant about Revisionist History (unjustly) and failing to question bias, when he won't assess his own biases concerning Williams.
 

I admire your, uh... fervour... but this is the second time in the past 24 hours I've wandered into a thread and watched you lose your mind on someone. The people you're directing your vitriol towards don't deserve to be treated like this. Everything okay with you?
Fair point and thanks for asking. Been a rough few weeks. Getting better but yes, short fuse lately. Sorry about that. Will endeavor to lighten the tone.
 

He doesn't want people criticizing her. He's effectively saying any criticism of Williams, even well documented criticism directly from the Podcast he and I both listened to, is not just unwarranted but a sign someone is failing to question the Williams narrative from long ago.
I think you might be reading things into this that might not be there. I'm not sure though. It does look fairly well balanced to me.
 

Remove ads

Top