D&D General The First Demise of TSR: Gygax's Folly

[Mistwell]

I think you might be reading things into this that might not be there. I'm not sure though. It does look fairly well balanced to me.

Here is the link from the first post. That's what triggered Snarf to make this thread. Note the comment I was replying to.

If Snarf is accepting of criticism of Williams, I have yet to see it. Every response I've ever seen from him on the topic is either dismissive, or worse.

 

[Umbran]

If Snarf is accepting of criticism of Williams, I have yet to see it. Every response I've ever seen from him on the topic is either dismissive, or worse.

Having been warned just a few posts ago, you continue to make this personal.

I don't understand how you thought that was going to turn out well for you.

People who do not listen to you may be incorrect, but being wrong about the RPG business is not a crime, and does not warrant continuing personal accusations and pressure from you.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So to answer your question in full- please try and read what I wrote. And while I loved Rose Estes, it really helps to remember that she left TSR, and only returned after Gygax was ousted. And the reason she left was because the Blumes, with the full actual knowledge and approval of Gygax, refused to give her what she had been contractually promised. And when Gygax was in full charge ... he continued to fight her attempts to get what she deserved.

I was lucky enough to spend an entire afternoon with Rose in her shop a year or so ago. Her relationship with Gary was...not the best. He would tell her things like, "The only job women are good for are secretaries and housewives--anyone else is a whore.", and telling her, knowing she was Jewish, "Don't go to California if you hate jews." Outside of the lawsuit, she mentioned many times how she felt she didn't get credit that was due her.

 

[Parmandur]

Classic Greek Tragedy...

 

[MGibster]

I was lucky enough to spend an entire afternoon with Rose in her shop a year or so ago. Her relationship with Gary was...not the best. He would tell her things like, "The only job women are good for are secretaries and housewives--anyone else is a whore.", and telling her, knowing she was Jewish, "Don't go to California if you hate jews." Outside of the lawsuit, she mentioned many times how she felt she didn't get credit that was due her.

So just your normal, every day office chit-chat?

 

[billd91]

I was lucky enough to spend an entire afternoon with Rose in her shop a year or so ago. Her relationship with Gary was...not the best. He would tell her things like, "The only job women are good for are secretaries and housewives--anyone else is a whore.", and telling her, knowing she was Jewish, "Don't go to California if you hate jews." Outside of the lawsuit, she mentioned many times how she felt she didn't get credit that was due her.

It's kind of surprising just how much she defended Gygax in the podcast with all that in mind. But then I think there's probably some compartmentalism going on. Gygax could say some anti-Semitic and/or sexist crap in front of a Jewish woman, run the company like a twit, and yet it seems she separates that from Gygax's right to own D&D as its inventor and as the guy who made employing all those game designing nerds in their dream profession possible. They belong to different "compartments" in assessing what's right and proper.

 

[arakasi]

There is one element of Gary's ouster that was never quite clear to me: when he was removed as CEO was there any option floated for him to remain with TSR? The received wisdom is that he was "kicked out of his own company", but the meeting minutes only address the loss of his senior management roles.

"Creative Director" would have been a step down, but he was better suited for it than CEO or President. Was there no option proffer, or did Gary declare "Settra rules!" and refuse any option that did not leave him at the top?


Also, re the "ambush" nature of the meeting. It never would have worked if any of the people involved decided to support Gary. If there was one person among the board loyal to Gary or thought he could save TSR, the plan would have collapsed. Evan the Blumes chose not to whisper in his ear in the hopes of starting a bidding war for their shares.

It was the scenario when the leader with his minions at his back declares that he will any foe, only to realize that everyone backing him starts easing out of the line of fire. If it was a palace coup, it was done with the full support of the country's ministers.

 

[TiQuinn]

There is one element of Gary's ouster that was never quite clear to me: when he was removed as CEO was there any option floated for him to remain with TSR? The received wisdom is that he was "kicked out of his own company", but the meeting minutes only address the loss of his senior management roles.

"Creative Director" would have been a step down, but he was better suited for it than CEO or President. Was there no option proffer, or did Gary declare "Settra rules!" and refuse any option that did not leave him at the top?


Also, re the "ambush" nature of the meeting. It never would have worked if any of the people involved decided to support Gary. If there was one person among the board loyal to Gary or thought he could save TSR, the plan would have collapsed. Evan the Blumes chose not to whisper in his ear in the hopes of starting a bidding war for their shares.

It was the scenario when the leader with his minions at his back declares that he will any foe, only to realize that everyone backing him starts easing out of the line of fire. If it was a palace coup, it was done with the full support of the country's ministers.

I don't recall from the podcast if Gygax was given a choice to actually stay with TSR, but he was offered a deal to keep the AD&D trademark and royalties if he were to settling his suit against them, which seemed to me to be a pretty generous offer and one that would keep him connected to the brand he created with the money to move forward if he wanted to. But, my guess is to his mind, that was taking too big a loss compared to what he was accustomed to and so he fought on with the suit, and walked away with far, far less in the end.

 

[MGibster]

There is one element of Gary's ouster that was never quite clear to me: when he was removed as CEO was there any option floated for him to remain with TSR? The received wisdom is that he was "kicked out of his own company", but the meeting minutes only address the loss of his senior management roles.

During the ambush, someone said to Gary something along the lines of, "We hope you will continue with TSR in a creative capacity." Did they mean it? Maybe? After all, the company was selling a lot of books with Gary's name on it. And given that Gary had been there from the beginning, they might very well have figured he'd be unable to let go.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As someone who has never been particularly fond of the things I've heard about Gygax...

Yeah, a lot of this just makes me sad, not really all that angry. It sounds like his past sufferings (poverty, religious concerns, wanting to break free of his constraints, etc.), coupled with his inability (primarily via inexperience) to grapple with the rapid rise and then equally rapid falloff, put him in an extraordinarily difficult position--and unfortunately, he ended up taking a less than positive path from there. Pride goeth before a fall, and everything I've ever read of Gygax's personal writings indicated he was a very prideful man. (Not that I find this too surprising; he wasn't much older than my father, and my father was a likewise very prideful man.)

I know little of Ms. Williams, other than that a lot of people strenuously dislike her. It sounds like she may have been a good fit for dealing with the faults Gygax brought, but the faults she subsequently brought were still damaging, just differently so.

I definitely think that Gygax has gotten more than a little lionization...or even idolization...over the years. Still, he was, in fact, a man, and often the idol image does not even remotely match that man.