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Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

He's absolutely a peer made into property by force. It's just that force was applied effectively before he was born. I don't think you'd have any difficulty at all calling him a slave if he was a biological being created to serve and with their free will limited by some kind of removable or destroyable implant.
The reason that I wouldn't call him a 'peer' is that he is made and not of the same 'stuff' as his makers. All droids are also not equal, in that the mouse droids and buzz droids don't seem to be on the same level. They're in servitude much as any tool that we create serves us- but at what point does that level of sentience imply slavery? Especially if this is what they are made to do?
 

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Especially if this is what they are made to do?
I think I might avoid any argument about slavery that goes down that particular line. There's little difference between what someone is "made to do" and "born to do" when people are born into slavery.
 

The reason that I wouldn't call him a 'peer' is that he is made and not of the same 'stuff' as his makers.
I don't think that holds up in a universe as diverse as that of Star Wars with all sorts of wild sentient beings. Particularly as most of the droids we've seen are of approximately human intelligence and surprisingly human mindsets. Whatever the secrets behind their construction, they're ending up seeming very human-like. So in terms of their intelligence and way of thinking they're more "peers" of humanity than some of the other aliens are!

All droids are also not equal, in that the mouse droids and buzz droids don't seem to be on the same level. They're in servitude much as any tool that we create serves us- but at what point does that level of sentience imply slavery?
I think that's a more important point. There probably is a dividing line. Where exactly that would be something for the droids to determine, probably. They'd have a better idea than humans would.

Especially if this is what they are made to do?
As @billd91 says that's 100% been argued to be the case about humans, like repeatedly, for centuries. It doesn't really matter why something exists if it's inherently sentient, sapient, and free-willed. You also can really get into the weeds with that because some droids will not have been created to be slaves (c.f. C3PO), but are clearly treated as slaves anyway.
 

I think I might avoid any argument about slavery that goes down that particular line. There's little difference between what someone is "made to do" and "born to do" when people are born into slavery.
There is a very big difference. Made being 'manufactured' as any tool. Born is not a manufacture process.
 

As @billd91 says that's 100% been argued to be the case about humans, like repeatedly, for centuries. It doesn't really matter why something exists if it's inherently sentient, sapient, and free-willed. You also can really get into the weeds with that because some droids will not have been created to be slaves (c.f. C3PO), but are clearly treated as slaves anyway.
Been argued disingenously. They had no part in the creation - we can't create life. We can create computers, machinery, robots and at some point one things that they might develop sentience. But they are still not self-replicating. At what point does machinery==life? Even if behaviors and such are hardwired, they're still created, no matter the differentiation that it's not code.
 

There is a very big difference. Made being 'manufactured' as any tool. Born is not a manufacture process.
How about the clones created on Kamino? They were "manufactured" but also definitely counted as life since they were, pretty much, just modified humans born, raised, and educated via a manufacturing process. Definitely as sentient as any other humans. Were they slaves? If no, why not? If yes, what's the difference between them and sentient droids?
 
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How about the clones created on Camino? They were "manufactured" but also definitely counted as life since they were, pretty much, just modified humans born, raised, and educated via a manufacturing process. Definitely as sentient as any other humans. Were they slaves? If no, why not? If yes, what's the difference between them and sentient droids?
They were created from sentient life. They weren't parts created for machinery, but replicated children, force grown, genetically altered humans. There's a difference between cloning and manufacture.
 

They were created from sentient life. They weren't parts created for machinery, but replicated children, force grown, genetically altered humans. There's a difference between cloning and manufacture.
If the products of childbirth, cloning, and manufacture are all sentient, why should the process matter? It seems to me like you're positing some kind of inherent hierarchy between the different methods because of, what, raw material?
 

Okay, but what about a droid like Chopper? He's an astromech droid, he's literally built to fix and maintain starships, yet he has a mean temper and a higher body count than pretty much any other droid in the franchise. Was that programmed in by his manufacturer, or by Hera, or is it a personality trait that emerged through his experiences?

So, in Chopper's case it is probably a response to the droid's programmed desire to serve its owner and prioritize their needs and happiness, as filtered through his experience as a droid whose owner is a rebel soldier. It's owner needs to have a droid that is a killer, and so it becomes the killer it's owner needs. Not having seen the show in question, Hera might have tinkered with the fail safes of the already notoriously independent minded astromech droids (because they are programmed to be creative problem solvers) and the result is an AI that is learning to use its engineering skills to kill. If "Chopper" is grumpy it's probably some sort of compromise it's had to make in its personality matrix to handle the fact that it's new personality is not compatible with its original goals. In this case, his experiences are mostly shaped by, "I was made to serve and this is how I need to serve in this case."

In most ways, this isn't really any different than K2-SO4. The Rebels hijack K2-SO4s loyalty matrix so that it becomes loyal to them rather than the Empire, demanding it prioritize their values over its original values. It then proceeds to become a loyal killer for them, ruthlessly exterminating their enemies, trying its best to please it's new owners by presenting itself in a way compatible with their values.
 

If the products of childbirth, cloning, and manufacture are all sentient, why should the process matter? It seems to me like you're positing some kind of inherent hierarchy between the different methods because of, what, raw material?
I'm saying that they aren't peers. If my computer became sentient at some point, that wouldn't make it de facto my peer. If someone clones a human then by the very nature of cloning it is still a human. Same with birth by the biological processes.
 

Into the Woods

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