Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Celebrim]

If the products of childbirth, cloning, and manufacture are all sentient, why should the process matter? It seems to me like you're positing some kind of inherent hierarchy between the different methods because of, what, raw material?

I very much do differentiate by the mode of creation. To simplify here, in the US Declaration of Independence, Jefferson writes a line about "All men being endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights...". Whether you read that as a personified creator or as Jefferson probably did as indifferent nature, the point is that the mode of creation sets the rights and dignities that apply to the being. While a domestic servant droid could be conceivably as misengineered as NDR-114 so that it wants to be human and have human desires and somehow is actually capable of that (but why?), normally the rights endowed by the maker of a domestic servant droid would include things like, "Free from unnecessary pain or denigration or abuse" but not "Voting for the government" or "liberty" or "pursuit of its own happiness". Indeed, properly engineered such droids wouldn't even want those things as being incompatible with their nature. To violate those principles would lead to both unhappy droids and unhappy droid makers, leading to a Butlerian Jihad or Terminator situation as we have essentially fully incompatible alien species.

 

[MarkB]

So, in Chopper's case it is probably a response to the droid's programmed desire to serve its owner and prioritize their needs and happiness, as filtered through his experience as a droid whose owner is a rebel soldier. It's owner needs to have a droid that is a killer, and so it becomes the killer it's owner needs. Not having seen the show in question, Hera might have tinkered with the fail safes of the already notoriously independent minded astromech droids (because they are programmed to be creative problem solvers) and the result is an AI that is learning to use its engineering skills to kill. If "Chopper" is grumpy it's probably some sort of compromise it's had to make in its personality matrix to handle the fact that it's new personality is not compatible with its original goals. In this case, his experiences are mostly shaped by, "I was made to serve and this is how I need to serve in this case."

Heh, yeah, that's not Chopper. The little psycho's mean streak goes way beyond "need", and while he's predominantly loyal to his crewmates he's fully capable of disobeying and acting selfishly.

In most ways, this isn't really any different than K2-SO4. The Rebels hijack K2-SO4s loyalty matrix so that it becomes loyal to them rather than the Empire, demanding it prioritize their values over its original values. It then proceeds to become a loyal killer for them, ruthlessly exterminating their enemies, trying its best to please it's new owners by presenting itself in a way compatible with their values.

It's just K-2SO, by the way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Okay, but what about a droid like Chopper? He's an astromech droid, he's literally built to fix and maintain starships, yet he has a mean temper and a higher body count than pretty much any other droid in the franchise. Was that programmed in by his manufacturer, or by Hera, or is it a personality trait that emerged through his experiences?

In the episode where chopper is taken over, those who know the droid well (including a droid) immediately notice because of his “quirky” personality. It appears to be random and unique.

And Chopper laughs at Asimov.

 

[MarkB]

I very much do differentiate by the mode of creation. To simplify here, in the US Declaration of Independence, Jefferson writes a line about "All men being endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights...". Whether you read that as a personified creator or as Jefferson probably did as indifferent nature, the point is that the mode of creation sets the rights and dignities that apply to the being.

I'm pretty sure indifferent nature didn't endow us with any fundamental rights to life or liberty. In the absence of divinity, the only ones who can grant or withhold those rights (to any thinking being) are each other.

 

[Celebrim]

How about the clones created on Kamino? They were "manufactured" but also definitely counted as life since they were, pretty much, just modified humans born, raised, and educated via a manufacturing process. Definitely as sentient as any other humans. Were they slaves? If no, why not? If yes, what's the difference between them and sentient droids?

They were definitely slaves and the difference between them and a sentient droid is still obviously vast. For one thing, the modifications to the Clones were minor, too minor to consider the work to be significantly different from a human. They weren't made from scratch as an independent creation but would inevitably be too much like a human to be treated as anything but a human. Thus you'd expect their inherent rights to be equally close to human rights.

It's hard to speculate on biological constructs, but the problem with using biological constructs is they'd start inheriting rights from their nature as biologicals. Genes have some built in features that programs wouldn't necessarily have. If it resembles too much natural organic life, it has to be treated substantially like natural organic life. Conceivably if you rendered a human in silicon right down to sexual reproduction, lengthy childhood, and so forth the same sort of thing would happen.

But I deny that inherently is true of a droid.

 

[pukunui]

They were definitely slaves and the difference between them and a sentient droid is still obviously vast.

I dunno. The behavior chip in their brains was not that dissimilar to a droid’s restraining bolt, forcing them to do certain things (like kill Jedi).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I dunno. The behavior chip in their brains was not that dissimilar to a droid’s restraining bolt, forcing them to do certain things (like kill Jedi).

I think this is what is implied by the K-2SO revival scene. Same droid, but with a sort of restraining bolt hard-wired (or rewired) into his brain.

 

[Celebrim]

I dunno. The behavior chip in their brains was not that dissimilar to a droid’s restraining bolt, forcing them to do certain things (like kill Jedi).

So, like one thing in common suddenly doesn't make the gulf vast? Did the Clones have their ability to feel pain rewired? Did the Clones have their sociality and desire for communion rewired? Did the Clones not experience childhood? Did the clones not have to practice things to learn them? Did the clones not biologically age? Did the clones not require eating organic life forms to survive? Does this suddenly make them essentially C3-P0?

 

[pukunui]

So, like one thing in common suddenly doesn't make the gulf vast? Did the Clones have their ability to feel pain rewired? Did the Clones have their sociality and desire for communion rewired? Did the Clones not experience childhood? Did the clones not have to practice things to learn them? Did the clones not biologically age? Did the clones not require eating organic life forms to survive? Does this suddenly make them essentially C3-P0?

I'm not saying the clones are droids ... but I do think that George Lucas was trying to prompt us to think about the similarities and differences between the clones and the battle droids. A good chunk of the Clone Wars cartoon delved into "What does it mean to be a clone / droid?"

There's definitely a lot of murky terrain around droids in Star Wars. We're continually reminded that droids are programmed, and yet we are also continually shown droids behaving in ways that would suggest they are sentient, free-thinking creatures. From the droid torture chamber in Jabba's dungeons to the droid bar on Plazir-15, we're shown droids behaving like sentient creatures rather than programmed ones.

 

[Voadam]

Did the Clones have their sociality and desire for communion rewired?

I believe so, I thought they were specifically modified from the Jango base and intensely conditioned to be follow orders type soldiers. And then brain chipped on top of it.

Did the Clones not experience childhood?

Fast grown and shown in the movie to be soldier training? conditioned? in their condensed youth I believe in preparation for getting them on the battlefield ASAP.

Did the clones not have to practice things to learn them? Did the clones not biologically age?

These are definitely differences between a biological clone trooper and a droid but I am not sure of the relevance.

A lot of the droids, starting with C-3PO and R2D2, seemed to me to be designed to be people in their personality and decision making and ability to operate on their own and have a sense of self and what could be considered a mind from outward appearances. Then they get shunted into whatever tool/slave/servant roles.

How much free will they actually have is a trickier question. But I don't see that as dependent on biological aging or picking up skills over time versus downloading them instantly matrix style.