D&D General The First Demise of TSR: Gygax's Folly

Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways I got from reading through some of the Alarums & Excursions back-and-forths between Gary and others was how much contempt there was even then. It seemed like it was still a minority, but there was obviously a vocal one that didn’t really want someone in Geneva telling them anything and considered TSR as negative influence on the hobby because of it’s perceived profit seeking.
There is that, and as a publisher, I can tell you we get rabid attacks from people, and it's weird that say they are "defending" some other game, when that other game's designer is on your friends list, you share videos, pictures of family gatherings, gentle words of encouragement, and even sometimes ran in the same circles as kids in the NYC punk scene. Gary was a guy, made a game, raised a family, lived his life, and now has gone to where we all will go.
 

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Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways I got from reading through some of the Alarums & Excursions back-and-forths between Gary and others was how much contempt there was even then. It seemed like it was still a minority, but there was obviously a vocal one that didn’t really want someone in Geneva telling them anything and considered TSR as negative influence on the hobby because of it’s perceived profit seeking.
It's a wide-spread phenomenon outside of hobby gaming as well. You get fans complaining about artists "selling out" by making good money when "it should all be just about the art, man. <bong hit>" I mean, who needs to make a living, amiright?

That said, Gary could sure whip up his scorn for the 'zines when he had The Dragon as his bully (or in this case, bullying?) pulpit. By then, of course, they could (would) no longer do much for him and his company.
 

Not sure how people miss it…

It’s not selling out unless you are making something that is subpar, internationally for the sake of profit.

Foibles and all, if you can’t support a shoe salesman moving up due to entrepreneurship you are just too legit to quit.

And that is what I most respect—-one of the inputs to business: entrepreneurship.

Put your money and time on the line…then bitch about how you don’t like those that went for it.

My bias is showing! But whatever the case, if you take the risk and front some money, it’s worth more than part of the idea to me.

But just because you do a laudable thing does not make you a saint and why would any of us think it would?
 

That said, Gary could sure whip up his scorn for the 'zines when he had The Dragon as his bully (or in this case, bullying?) pulpit.
Given some of the things that Gary was responding to, I also have gained some sympathy for his latter position.

There was, for instance an open letter suggesting that TSR was ripping off the gaming community by selling “75¢ worth of Xeroxed copy for $10.” Then suggesting that everyone should just make their own Xeroxed copies to avoid paying TSR.

And this was in published zine.
 

He also said some messed up stuff, and could be rather caustic, I remember watching him answer a question and thinking "boy, am I not going to ask that guy anything." (edit: a lot of adults were like this towards us kids too "children should seen and not heard" was the old saying) Though it is like anything, I see people ask in the car restoration/hot rodding groups real dumb questions and one has to remember they are just kids, and we were all total newbs at one point.
 

He also said some messed up stuff, and could be rather caustic, I remember watching him answer a question and thinking "boy, am I not going to ask that guy anything." (edit: a lot of adults were like this towards us kids too "children should seen and not heard" was the old saying) Though it is like anything, I see people ask in the car restoration/hot rodding groups real dumb questions and one has to remember they are just kids, and we were all total newbs at one point.
As a greasemonkey who was involved in many Web 1.0 & 2.0 car forums, the hostility towards people posting a question that had already been asked was very intense. Bumping and thread-necro was likewise a good way to get banned or booted.

I’ve only recently gotten into general TTRPG forums with the exception of Candlekeep where I’ve been active off and on since the early 2000s. That board was extremely friendly (and still is.) So far, I’ve found enworld really good as well. That said, I get some of the same vibe as with the car forums from places like Dragonsfoot.
 

As a greasemonkey who was involved in many Web 1.0 & 2.0 car forums, the hostility towards people posting a question that had already been asked was very intense. Bumping and thread-necro was likewise a good way to get banned or booted.

I’ve only recently gotten into general TTRPG forums with the exception of Candlekeep where I’ve been active off and on since the early 2000s. That board was extremely friendly (and still is.) So far, I’ve found enworld really good as well. That said, I get some of the same vibe as with the car forums from places like Dragonsfoot.
Car people are terrible $&%#-talkers, I ran a racing board 25 years ago. RPG'ers aren't quite as bad, I think most fandoms have their moments though. ENWorld is a good forum, and good for general news about the hobby, people friendly enough too.
 

Car people are terrible $&%#-talkers, I ran a racing board 25 years ago. RPG'ers aren't quite as bad, I think most fandoms have their moments though. ENWorld is a good forum, and good for general news about the hobby, people friendly enough too.
It’s weird, I honestly can remember when the internet was basically just game, car, firearm, & computer “fandoms” for a lack of a better term.

Social media actually did more damage than anything to those forums. I’ve gotten out of the “official” social media and went back to the boards in the past couple years.

In some ways, I wonder if that late 90s/early 2000s Internet forum world was closer to what pre-1975 gaming was, and then TSR comes along and it basically destroys the community that existed and simultaneously brings in “the normies” that exploded the scene by the early 80s similarly to Facebook and Reddit since 2010 or so.

Gary Gygax in a lot of ways was sort of a member of the tribe that took what a lot of people felt was a common good and monetized it. He probably wasn’t the only person who was struggling in that community, but he was one of the few that got wealthy from it. Gary was also not an unknown figure in the war game world. He was a prolific writer to various zines, going back into the 1960s. I’m completely surprised that there was some contempt of the man from people who once thought of him as a peer.
 

In some ways, I wonder if that late 90s/early 2000s Internet forum world was closer to what pre-1975 gaming was, and then TSR comes along and it basically destroys the community that existed and simultaneously brings in “the normies” that exploded the scene by the early 80s similarly to Facebook and Reddit since 2010 or so.

Gary Gygax in a lot of ways was sort of a member of the tribe that took what a lot of people felt was a common good and monetized it. He probably wasn’t the only person who was struggling in that community, but he was one of the few that got wealthy from it. Gary was also not an unknown figure in the war game world. He was a prolific writer to various zines, going back into the 1960s. I’m completely surprised that there was some contempt of the man from people who once thought of him as a peer.
I'm kind of struggling with what constituted "the community" Gygax exploded. If you're talking the RPG community - that didn't really exist before D&D - there were separate wargamer and sci-fi/fantasy communities that had member that were attracted to D&D and formed a D&D/RPG community. D&D breaking out into a fad product certainly would have exploded that community further, but D&D was pretty much the community's big bang in the first place anyway. Grumbling about the expansion to incorporate more "normies" would have been the equivalent of a gatekeeping/old geezer backlash.
 

Was Gygax a creative genius?
Honestly, I think it is the wrong question. I think we* are too in love with the idea of geniuses (we as a culture, but even moreso nerddom fandom and those who show up in forums like this). There's something to be said for someone who sees a good idea and then just plain puts in the work. The amount of playtesting that went into oD&D is genuinely astounding. Some of the adventures Gary wrote, similarly, clearly have lots and lots of effort behind them. The places that get the most critique in oD&D (the editing and organization) and AD&D (the organization, some clearly untested subsystems), are the places where they look genuinely incomplete. Much of the later material like Unearthed Arcana that we generally consider of poorer quality is likewise Gary going through the motions or trying to cut corners. Going past Gary to this board, effort clearly matters. Is our own beloved Snarf a genius? I have no idea. I can tell you though, they put in ten times more effort on their columns alone than I spend thinking about TTRPGs in total, and it pays off. Mind you, if you don't start with a good idea, you are unlikely to come up with a good product (and that seems to define post TSR Gary).
If you look at his most impactful contributions, virtually all were iterations on work other people had started. Greyhawk, including (we now know, though he never admitted it) the pivotal Fantasy Supplement were iterations, often very close iterations, on work that others had done. The D&D Rules were iterations on what Arneson had been doing. Most of the new character classes were proposed first by others.
From context (has a fantasy supplement), I assume you mean oD&DChainmail. Greyhawk was mostly Gary's (and Kuntze's) own work (although occasionally others ideas, as in the case of those new character classes).
As a greasemonkey who was involved in many Web 1.0 & 2.0 car forums, the hostility towards people posting a question that had already been asked was very intense. Bumping and thread-necro was likewise a good way to get banned or booted.

I’ve only recently gotten into general TTRPG forums with the exception of Candlekeep where I’ve been active off and on since the early 2000s. That board was extremely friendly (and still is.) So far, I’ve found enworld really good as well. That said, I get some of the same vibe as with the car forums from places like Dragonsfoot.
I find cross-forum drama unseemly, so take this with a grain of salt. However, I've found the culture at DF has vacillated over the years. Like anywhere else without an entrance requirement and unextreme ban policy, it's just anyone who chooses to be there. That said, it's been not remarkably better or worse than anywhere else.
 
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