D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

[Flights of Fancy]

This may well be the last 5E campaign I run, judging by how I feel about 2024 thus far, but we want to see it through from 1st to at least mid teens leveling.

What about returning to 2014 rules?

None of the groups I play in decided to move to 2024 because of the changes. We're pretty disappointed over all, but that's the way it is.

 

[Reynard]

What about returning to 2014 rules?

None of the groups I play in decided to move to 2024 because of the changes. We're pretty disappointed over all, but that's the way it is.

Nah. 10 years is enough.

 

[Distracted DM]

One thing I forogt to mention: we are playing this campaign as a way to put D&D2024 through its paces. Therefore, we aren't going to house rule problems away. This may well be the last 5E campaign I run, judging by how I feel about 2024 thus far, but we want to see it through from 1st to at least mid teens leveling.

I allowed 5e24 PCs in one of my games to see how it stacked up vs A5E stuff. The power ramp-up has put me off allowing 5e24 stuff in my games going forward. They're not more complex/sophisticated power increases like Level Up A5E's, they're just flat-out overall better. It really wasn't necessary.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

Nah. 10 years is enough.

Not thread-related, but any idea what you'll move on to next? My groups are all exploring different avenues, including homebrew material, so I'm curious if you have anything in mind?

 

[dave2008]

Does it trigger OA in 2024? I thought forced movment trigger them?

Both the 2014 & 2024 version force movement

 

[dave2008]

I think folk

I allowed 5e24 PCs in one of my games to see how it stacked up vs A5E stuff. The power ramp-up has put me off allowing 5e24 stuff in my games going forward. They're not more complex/sophisticated power increases like Level Up A5E's, they're just flat-out overall better. It really wasn't necessary.

Interesting, we haven't noticed that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That subject line is a little incendiary, but anway.

Last night the PCs (5 4th level 5E2024 characters) went into a young black dragon's lair to kill it. The dragon also had an allied abomination (using the stats for a half dragon in the MM). This was, per the A5E chart (which has been pretty accurate, even for 2024 rules) a Deadly encounter. And it mighthave been if not a for a few failed saves.

Just a reminder: a young dragon is not a legendary creature, has no legendary actions, and has no lair actions.

As soons as the PCs enter, the wizard casts suggestion on the half dragon and compels it to just up and leave. It fails. it leaves. Suggestion is RIDICULOUS.

The dragon swoops down on the monk, breaths, and drops the monk instantly (dying not dead). So it looks like there might be an actual fight to be had, even with the solo young dragon. Then the bard gets going with Dissonate Whispers (which triggers opportunity attacks). The dragon does not recharge its breath and unloads on the bard. Unfortunately, the dice were not with me at all.

Ultimately, hideous laughter completely did the dragon in.

What an underwhelming experience.

Note: I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the rules, or with luck having so much weight in the fight. I am just complaining that it turned into a comedy of errors rather than anything fun and tense. And I am still aghast at suggestion.

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

Do you have a suggested rules change that would have resolved the situation more your satisfaction, while also being acceptable to your players?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Uggg as a DM your hands are tied by these spells. The best tactical option for the enemies may be to cast suggestion and take a PC out of the fight, but no one wants to make a player sit for an hour and do nothing.

Modern D&D, and 5.5 especially so from what I've read, is a very player-centric game, that seems to prioritize players showing off their PC's cool powers to wreck everything around them at every opportunity so they can display their awesomeness to everyone else at the table. Sometimes I feel the DM's main job according to the game's design philosophy is simply to create opportunities for the players to do this.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

Both the 2014 & 2024 version force movement

The question was whether the forced movement in this case (2024) triggered OA? The OP says it does, but I thought forced movement never triggered OA.

We've never had the forced movement in 2014 trigger OA, as that would contitute obviously dangerous movement.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No. You are the DM. Talk it through with your players. Tell them the spell sucks and you won't play it that way or you need to do what you suggest: use it as a DM. And just always add extra enemies, specifically with those spells prepared...

No one wants an arms race either. So the option is making fair use rules for such spells.

You don't think the DM using these spells as written against the PCs is fair? The players may not like it, but I don't think you can say it isn't fair. After all, what kind of play is turnabout?