Realistic Combat that's Simple(ish)

[Thomas Shey]

There are saves in CP2020, but they're based upon distance down the HP track. Unlike CP 2013, which was a comparison of damage to body type, and resulting rolls.

2013 is more realistic, but also more a pain to run with anyone who plays D&D... as they whine about it being soooo lethal.

Wasn't the hit points derived from Body though? So in practice it was just a difference in terms of whether already extent damage mattered rather than total, no?

 

[mmadsen]

CP2020 uses a hit point track. You're describing CP2013, not 2020.

When I said, “Cyberpunk 2020 used a couple damage saves, the stun save and the death save, that could work just fine without hit points (and wound levels, which are basically groups of four hit points).” I was acknowledging that Cyberpunk 2020 uses a hit point track but noting that it’s a lot of extra work, when straight-up damage saves work just fine.

 

[Thomas Shey]

When I said, “Cyberpunk 2020 used a couple damage saves, the stun save and the death save, that could work just fine without hit points (and wound levels, which are basically groups of four hit points).” I was acknowledging that Cyberpunk 2020 uses a hit point track but noting that it’s a lot of extra work, when straight-up damage saves work just fine.

As I asked earlier, how do you keep track of degree of injury and healing after the fact then? There are non-hit-point models that can do that, but I don't think the Stun and Death saves by themselves do.

 

[mmadsen]

As I asked earlier, how do you keep track of degree of injury and healing after the fact then? There are non-hit-point models that can do that, but I don't think the Stun and Death saves by themselves do.

There are any number of ways you could handle wounds and healing in a system without hit points.

In most genre fiction, any wound that doesn’t put you down is a flesh wound that you bandage up before getting back into action, so simply ignoring any treated wounds would work fine, or requiring a successful First Aid roll to “heal” a wound.

If you want cumulative damage, untreated wounds could cost one Body; that is, they could incur -1 each to future damage saves until treated.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There are any number of ways you could handle wounds and healing in a system without hit points.

Sure. You just seemed like you were acting like the saves alone would do the work.

In most genre fiction, any wound that doesn’t put you down is a flesh wound that you bandage up before getting back into action, so simply ignoring any treated wounds would work fine, or requiring a successful First Aid roll to “heal” a wound.

Of course for the most part, people emulating most genre fiction are going to find easy instant deaths or takeouts as welcome as a fungal infection, at least on a PC.

If you want cumulative damage, untreated wounds could cost one Body; that is, they could incur -1 each to future damage saves until treated.

I don't actually think cumulative wounds are a great model, but if you're trying for any realism something to handle persistent injury is needed.

 

[Argyle King]

I think that a realistic combat system would make a much, much bigger deal out of morale and fear in combat. Even mundane foes should scare most people, leaving them shaken indefinitely, potentially frightened, and even panicked. In a modern fire-fight, I would expect most soldiers to be frightened and taking cover. The braver ones might be shaken and firing wildly. The bravest, or craziest, few might keep their cool and deliver pinpoint accuracy. (Those are the PCs, of course.)

Some games do have that.
Things like shock can occur.
PCs could have advantages that mitigate or eliminate that (or they start without such advantages and gain them).

It's surprising what the mind can normalize.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Some games do have that.
Things like shock can occur.
PCs could have advantages that mitigate or eliminate that (or they start without such advantages and gain them).

It's surprising what the mind can normalize.

I've mentioned Eclipse Phase 2e in this context. It has four types of things that can cause psychological injury; three of the four you can accumulate resistance to (the fourth only a subset of characters can because of specifics of the genre and setting it applies to) and after a while become immune--but there's a price for that happening in how good you are at dealing with other people.

 

[aramis erak]

Wasn't the hit points derived from Body though? So in practice it was just a difference in terms of whether already extent damage mattered rather than total, no?

No. It's a fixed pile. Body type produces a modifier which reduces each hit's damage. It's not quite linear, and a BT 2 is -0, BT 10 is -5...
4 boxes of light, 4 of serious, 4 of critical, 4 of Mortal 0, 4 of Mortal 1, 4 of Mortal 2, ... 4 of Mortal 6.
Stun saves are 1d10 ≤ BT, -1 per full 4 hits taken total. Death saves are 1d10 ≤ (BT - (Mortal #)).
It's an HP system with levels of damage, and with with stun and death saves. See CP2020 CRB p. 104.

CP2013 uses a number of tables... rolled damage less armor is cross indexed to body type to get the individual wound's level. If one has prior wounds, cross-index with the worst to get the actual cumulative level. The consciousness save is made by cross-indexing cumulative level and body type, then rolling 1d10 ≤ the result. Healing times are another table. Note that, unlike CP 2020, dead is a viable result on the direct wound and on the cumulative wound tables. And they're small tables. Campaign players often memorized them.

it's primary lack of realism in either edition is the steady pace of combat - but that's the default state for most RPGs.

 

[mmadsen]

Sure. You just seemed like you were acting like the saves alone would do the work.

I think saves alone do “do the work” here, because healing isn’t much of an issue without ablative hit points. You have a bandaged-up flesh wound. It’ll heal sometime after you finish the mission.

Of course for the most part, people emulating most genre fiction are going to find easy instant deaths or takeouts as welcome as a fungal infection, at least on a PC.

I don’t think anyone finds it plausible that their unarmored character can just take gunshots with impunity, so I don’t think they should survive because the rules make gunshots non-lethal.

A realistic game can pit hyper-competent PCs against incompetent gang-members and security guards, and it can give the PCs better gear, including armor, but it would be weird if a rifle round couldn’t kill them.

I don't actually think cumulative wounds are a great model, but if you're trying for any realism something to handle persistent injury is needed.

I don’t think any realistic injury would heal mid-mission, but a cyberpunk setting should offer plenty of drugs for ignoring injuries long enough to get the job done.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think saves alone do “do the work” here, because healing isn’t much of an issue without ablative hit points. You have a bandaged-up flesh wound. It’ll heal sometime after you finish the mission.

I think this elides over "how long" and "with what treatment" than is useful in many cases.

I don’t think anyone finds it plausible that their unarmored character can just take gunshots with impunity, so I don’t think they should survive because the rules make gunshots non-lethal.

But people do. It makes an enormous difference where the gunshots land. And what the guns are. I can say this with personal certainty.

A realistic game can pit hyper-competent PCs against incompetent gang-members and security guards, and it can give the PCs better gear, including armor, but it would be weird if a rifle round couldn’t kill them.

It wouldn't be weird if it wasn't all that likely, depending on those factors however. A lot more military using modern body armor survive in environments where they can (and sometimes do) get hit by rifle rounds than was true even a decade ago.

I don’t think any realistic injury would heal mid-mission, but a cyberpunk setting should offer plenty of drugs for ignoring injuries long enough to get the job done.

I'm not talking about short term.