TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

In other news, in order to appeal to a new generation of gamers, the 2025 Edition of Chutes and Ladders will include only Ladders, no Chutes.
I don't think this is entirely helpful. And it's not really true.

If we can look past some of the more unpleasant connotations of word choices, I think there is a significant branch of RPGs that really have evolved in this general direction.

I don't want to derail the thread, but check out gaming discussions about "failing forward", or "Yes, and..." gameplay. Compare that to things like level drain or the traps in the Temple of Elemental Evil. It's really not that big of a stretch to say that these extremes could be summed up as "Chutes and Ladders*" and "Ladders without Chutes". From a certain point of view.

*Note: That's Snakes and Ladders for yous guys in England or India. I don't know which version Australia got, but I assume chutes are poisonous there so it doesn't matter.
 
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I think the 3e approach to level drain ("negative levels") solved a lot of issues- you didn't forget your abilities, they simply became weaker. You could lose spell slots, but you didn't forget what spells you could cast, and so on.

I don't have a problem with effects that reduce one's effectiveness (be it negative levels or ability damage), as long as they are temporary or within a player's means to overcome.

It's like running a wight, shadow, cockatrice, etc.. at low levels when the game tells us "yes, this is an appropriate low level enemy" but the players have zero ability to overcome being drained to 0 or turned to stone. To me, it always felt mean-spirited. Some of my contemporaries will point out that real life isn't fair, and things like this happen.

To which I reply, it's not real life, it's fantasy! Sure, I live in a world where I could be fired, shot, run over by a car, betrayed, or abducted by aliens at any moment, and there's nothing I can do about it. Why would I then want to deal with those same problems in a game I play for fun, unless I have the ability to do something about it?

Too often, I'm told "well, it's your fault for fighting such creatures or going into dangerous places". When going into dangerous places and fighting monsters is like, the whole point of D&D!

It's like my third game of Call of Cthulhu. After being told by the guy running the game that our previous failures were due to running into dangerous situations unprepared (and who really is prepared to encounter cosmic horror? John Constantine?), despite having dealt with a painting that simply looking at it can drive you insane and a "star vampire" that was invisible, indestructible, and could only be sealed by an ancient ritual, the setup for the third session was as follows:

"You have all been gathered to the reading of a will. Your college mentor, who guided you on the path to success in life has died, and you are all named in the will. You've traveled to the remote town he had retired to for the weekend. After checking into the hotel, you keep hearing people talk about "the murders" with quiet dread. News reports talk about a murderous cult in the woods. The next day, the Sheriff comes to the hotel and warns all the guests to stay indoors while they sort the mess out."

So guess what we did? We stayed indoors. No plot hook had been given to us beyond the reading of the will, and we'd all been told that it was dangerous to go wandering about. So we didn't. The weekend ended and the GM (I can't recall the term CoC uses for it's GM) simply shut his notebook and glared at us.

"If you're not going to actually play the game, we're done here."

To whit, if the point of the game is not to play it safe, and touch all the things and run around like the hapless teenagers in Scooby-Doo in order to have adventures, then "playing it safe" might not be engaging with the medium.

I've found, personally, that slowly inching one's way through a dungeon, searching every 5' square with 11' poles and detect magic for tricks and traps, having Standard Operating Procedures for every door encountered, always attempting to bypass monsters, waiting to set up ambushes, or engaging everything with ranged attacks might get the job done, but for me, it's incredibly tedious. So I assume that player characters are professionals and only behave in a reckless manner when they tell me that they are doing so- otherwise, nobody has to roll to find a trap unless there's a trap to be found, as an example. I assume everyone is wearing gloves or gauntlets when opening a door (just in case the handle has been smeared with contact poison), and if a ceiling obviously looks unsafe and might collapse if someone casts thunderwave, shatter, or fireball, I tell the players before they use such spells.

Some of my contemporaries think that the game is less fun when it's not played on hard mode. To which I say, some people like playing Dark Souls. Others like playing Elder Scrolls. There is no "right" or "correct" way to play the game as long as everyone is enjoying the experience.
 

"You have all been gathered to the reading of a will. Your college mentor, who guided you on the path to success in life has died, and you are all named in the will. You've traveled to the remote town he had retired to for the weekend. After checking into the hotel, you keep hearing people talk about "the murders" with quiet dread. News reports talk about a murderous cult in the woods. The next day, the Sheriff comes to the hotel and warns all the guests to stay indoors while they sort the mess out."

So guess what we did? We stayed indoors. No plot hook had been given to us beyond the reading of the will, and we'd all been told that it was dangerous to go wandering about. So we didn't. The weekend ended and the GM (I can't recall the term CoC uses for it's GM) simply shut his notebook and glared at us.

"If you're not going to actually play the game, we're done here."

To whit, if the point of the game is not to play it safe, and touch all the things and run around like the hapless teenagers in Scooby-Doo in order to have adventures, then "playing it safe" might not be engaging with the medium.
The best thing to do in Lovecraft Country is to leave as quickly as is safely possible.
 

I think level-drain is cool as is, but would come up with a fun way to mitigate its effects, such as killing the creature "releases your xp back", lost levels are easier to gain back (4x bonus), or quest to obtain a Greater Restoration.

Hate the idea of nerfing it officially or preemptively admitting it wont be as bad though since I still want those creatures to scare the PCs as much as it did myself when I first read the MM. 😅

And if no one manages to get hit/fail their save, they still get to feel awesome for overcoming the danger as written. 🤫
 

The one I deal with level drain (heavily home brewed first edition) is characters lose the level not experience, meaning they need to go level training again until they can use those powers etc, so it practice it works as a fairly nasty annoyance but not one that feels like they've lost invested time gaining the experience. Level training is cheaper than restoration. I also foreshadow 90% of the time if its likely to have that sort of undead if the characters look for clues etc.

The main reason my early edition home brew uses first edition as a base is mostly the character base. Most things can be as easily modded in or out of first/second edition without much difference in difficulty. But, and this is nostalgia based, no version of characters feels as distinct and flavorful to me. I enjoy the very different spell lists between casters, the different powers of martial classes, XP being different as a means of differentiation, and its use of different subsystems for classes, like thieves get the % checks.
I also like other things in first ed, but the could easily be done in second, like no cap for fireball/magic missile damage etc.

I'm actually finishing up with a campaign (currently around the 3.5 million xp mark) that has the first edition bard. The level process is a blip really. Playing as a fighter to start with is actually not a bad survival mechanism, and a fighter levels up fairly fast. The thief levels are over real fast. Unless you make the character level train when ready to level before gaining more xp, they will blaze through them, before some of the other characters go up a level. But all those classes means so many hit dice rolls, bards get to roll so many times compared to almost any other class, adding con bonus, while most the other characters where getting just +1 or 2.

But first edition is my base, I heavily layer it with second edition, then open it up with using things learnt from other editions and game systems. Its definitely my version of D&D.
 

Also, can you please make your point without making denigrating comments about newer players please? I started in 1981 so I'm hardly new, but I play with newer players, including Shadowdark and 5e games, and none of them are these fragile complainers you keep inferring they are. It's not helpful, and only paints us older gamers in a bad light. We have a bad enough reputation as it is.
It's not necessarily that newer players really are fragile complainers, it's that the designers of D&D keep designing as if they're fragile complainers, which does nobody any good.

=========

On the broader topic of level drain, keep in mind the game did have a baked-in means of at least somewhat reversing it, namely the Restoration spell.

Now if anyone wants to argue the as-written 1e Restoration spell isn't nearly as useful as it could be, I'm right there with you. But it's still better than nothing.
 

Oh! Not only does that make a lot of practical sense, but there's something about replacing the character sheet with an older version that feels like level drain. I love it.
I insist players keep old versions of character sheets for a far more pragmatic reason: it's inevitable there will be errors or omissions in the info transcribed from the old sheet to the new, and so the old one is kept as a reference.
I've always wanted to roleplay a PC getting amnesia by not telling the player they have amnesia, and instead secretly telling all the other players to start calling the amnesiac character by a different name, with a different backstory, and acting puzzled when the player wants to know what's going on.
That's brilliant!
 
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Back when I was playing AD&D regularly we established it as best practice to record HP rolls each level, just in case of level drain.
As player, I keep a track of hit point total each level e.g. 3,9,14,23,24,28 for the same reason, and as DM I insist the players do likewise.
 

I think the 3e approach to level drain ("negative levels") solved a lot of issues- you didn't forget your abilities, they simply became weaker. You could lose spell slots, but you didn't forget what spells you could cast, and so on.

I don't have a problem with effects that reduce one's effectiveness (be it negative levels or ability damage), as long as they are temporary or within a player's means to overcome.

It's like running a wight, shadow, cockatrice, etc.. at low levels when the game tells us "yes, this is an appropriate low level enemy" but the players have zero ability to overcome being drained to 0 or turned to stone. To me, it always felt mean-spirited. Some of my contemporaries will point out that real life isn't fair, and things like this happen.

To which I reply, it's not real life, it's fantasy! Sure, I live in a world where I could be fired, shot, run over by a car, betrayed, or abducted by aliens at any moment, and there's nothing I can do about it. Why would I then want to deal with those same problems in a game I play for fun, unless I have the ability to do something about it?
Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it has to be fair. :)

It comes back to the whole risk-reward question. 1e is designed as a high-risk high-reward system (and 5e, the opposite), and mitigating or removing the risks takes away much of the joy of earning the rewards.
I've found, personally, that slowly inching one's way through a dungeon, searching every 5' square with 11' poles and detect magic for tricks and traps, having Standard Operating Procedures for every door encountered, always attempting to bypass monsters, waiting to set up ambushes, or engaging everything with ranged attacks might get the job done, but for me, it's incredibly tedious.
And it'd be tedious for the characters as well, meaning sooner or later they'll get bored or careless and that's when fun happens. :)
So I assume that player characters are professionals and only behave in a reckless manner when they tell me that they are doing so- otherwise, nobody has to roll to find a trap unless there's a trap to be found, as an example. I assume everyone is wearing gloves or gauntlets when opening a door (just in case the handle has been smeared with contact poison), and if a ceiling obviously looks unsafe and might collapse if someone casts thunderwave, shatter, or fireball, I tell the players before they use such spells.
I won't outright tell them but if they've got a Dwarf or Gnome with them I'll give a roll to notice the iffy ceiling even if they haven't stated they're checking it. Unless they're running flat out trying to catch a fleeing foe, that is, in which case they're out of luck (exactly this happened here two sessions ago: a couple of PCs were chasing a foe and made a racket, down came the ceiling they didn't know was unsafe, ouch).
 

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