D&D 5E (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[aco175]

If the adventure is so obsolete and "bottom of the barrel" compared to WotC's current crop, why is it being resurrected?

 

[mamba]

I think k what we will see here is a fundamentally rewritten Adventure plugging into noatalgia.

I definitely expect a completely rewritten adventure, I just do not think the desire to do so / fix the original was the reason they chose KotB for the new starter set

 

[Parmandur]

I definitely expect a completely rewritten adventure, I just do not think the desire to do so / fix the original was the reason they chose KotB for the new starter set

Oh, no, that's nostalgia. Their current willingness to entirely rewrite it is why they are taking advantage of it now: when Yawning Portal came out, the designers were not in a mood to edit the classics, ut probably knew better thant l try to sell Blrderlands unedited.

 

[mamba]

that. I think when looking at that classic, is the reason it is a classic is

it’s inclusion in a set that introduced more people to D&D than anything before or up to LMoP.

 

[Scott Christian]

You can write “there is no plot” in a couple of seconds, you wouldn’t need an afternoon.

There isn’t much player agency in KotB. It’s in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing to do apart from go to the caves and murder humanoids. You want agency, do a city.

You are right, you can create a setting without a plot. But that doesn't mean you can create a setting with a mood, creative points, and DM tone. It just seems like you are missing the nuance of Keep. It is old. It is lacking in many areas. But it holds modern ideals, the same ideals many people on this site complain about, and that is it allows the player's to choose what they want to do. It allows the DM to focus on their interests, not a path or railroad.

Can you do that in a city? Sure. But Keep also shows you can do it on a frontier.

 

[Arilyn]

Brad Kerr's Wyvern Songs for OSE is my favourite introduction for new players. It's a little sandbox area with quirky, imaginative, fun locations and awesome NPCs. We had many hours of fun with this little book.

And yes, Merry Mushmen does amazing work!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

it allows the player's to choose what they want to do.

No it doesn’t. Because there isn’t anything to do apart from kill the humanoids in the caves.

The only other option is “this place is boring, let’s go to the nearest city”. And the text does nothing to support that, or even suggest to the DM that it’s a potential option.

I can only think you are blinded by nostalgia goggles, because the “nuance” you seem to think is there, simply is not.

 

[Scott Christian]

No it doesn’t. Because there isn’t anything to do apart from kill the humanoids in the caves.

The only other option is “this place is boring, let’s go to the nearest city”. And the text does nothing to support that, or even suggest to the DM that it’s a potential option.

I can only think you are blinded by nostalgia goggles, because the “nuance” you seem to think is there, simply is not.

To players that only try to do one thing, you are correct. But I think you are missing the point. If a group showed up, they could spend many sessions just exploring the Keep itself; navigating its politics, befriending people at the Traveller's Inn, helping the priest, gathering rumors. The DM can let the players do this. For example, if a player decides they want to befriend the Loan Banker's daughter or son, so they can gain access for a midnight theft - you as DM can let them do that. There is no, "Well, the time is ticking because Tiamat is about to come back and kill everyone." There are dozens of scenarios like this.

Then there is the swamp. It has lizard men. It has bandits. And whatever else your players want to discover. You have a cartographer in the group that has a need to map out fresh springs, and what river they are a tributary to? Great, says the DM. Why? Because they can just decide to do that. Have a group of murder hobos that want to befriend the bandits and try to take over the Keep? Sure. Go for it. Have a player that really wants to delve into why there are giant spiders in the swamp? Excellent, that is a path that could lead to a small drow cult.

Then there is a forest - with a hermit who has a pet lion? Who knows what you can do with this, but there are soooo many possibilities. It all depends on what your players want to do. Maybe your druid wants to create a pact with him, and help him protect the forest. Cool, some orcs are cutting down the trees. Let's stop them. Or maybe the mountain lion is pregnant, and they want to barter for one of its cubs. There is a quest line in there somewhere.

Then there are the caves. You know? The caves with opposing factions, an evil altar, slave pens, a labyrinth with a minotaur, undead, and whatever else was squeezed in. Your players could literally do a social campaign if you wanted, befriending one group and helping them get rid of their rivals. The labyrinth could be anything, you, as a DM, want it to be. The altar too.

The point is, there have been a billion-gazillion-quintillion replies to threads on this site about railroading. The evils of it. How it is so wrong. How it destroys player agency. Blah, blah, blah. This adventure, with its barebones information, allows the exact freedom for DMs and players that some people argue for.

(And for the record, I only played Keep once. We were young, maybe 13 or 14. We kept wandering around the swamps in hopes to find a siren, and guess what? The DM created an entire siren side story. That's all I remember. So I have no nostalgic glasses. But I have read it as an adult since then, and even though it is not thorough enough for me, it is definitely open enough for many.)

 

[Umbran]

I can only think you are blinded by nostalgia goggles...

Mod note:
In the future, please refrain from personal commentary, jabs or insults.

If you cannot show that restraint, we can provide restraint for you, but you are unlikely to be happy with it.

 

[Nikosandros]

To players that only try to do one thing, you are correct. But I think you are missing the point. If a group showed up, they could spend many sessions just exploring the Keep itself; navigating its politics, befriending people at the Traveller's Inn, helping the priest, gathering rumors. The DM can let the players do this. For example, if a player decides they want to befriend the Loan Banker's daughter or son, so they can gain access for a midnight theft - you as DM can let them do that. There is no, "Well, the time is ticking because Tiamat is about to come back and kill everyone." There are dozens of scenarios like this.

Then there is the swamp. It has lizard men. It has bandits. And whatever else your players want to discover. You have a cartographer in the group that has a need to map out fresh springs, and what river they are a tributary to? Great, says the DM. Why? Because they can just decide to do that. Have a group of murder hobos that want to befriend the bandits and try to take over the Keep? Sure. Go for it. Have a player that really wants to delve into why there are giant spiders in the swamp? Excellent, that is a path that could lead to a small drow cult.

Then there is a forest - with a hermit who has a pet lion? Who knows what you can do with this, but there are soooo many possibilities. It all depends on what your players want to do. Maybe your druid wants to create a pact with him, and help him protect the forest. Cool, some orcs are cutting down the trees. Let's stop them. Or maybe the mountain lion is pregnant, and they want to barter for one of its cubs. There is a quest line in there somewhere.

Then there are the caves. You know? The caves with opposing factions, an evil altar, slave pens, a labyrinth with a minotaur, undead, and whatever else was squeezed in. Your players could literally do a social campaign if you wanted, befriending one group and helping them get rid of their rivals. The labyrinth could be anything, you, as a DM, want it to be. The altar too.

The point is, there have been a billion-gazillion-quintillion replies to threads on this site about railroading. The evils of it. How it is so wrong. How it destroys player agency. Blah, blah, blah. This adventure, with its barebones information, allows the exact freedom for DMs and players that some people argue for.

(And for the record, I only played Keep once. We were young, maybe 13 or 14. We kept wandering around the swamps in hopes to find a siren, and guess what? The DM created an entire siren side story. That's all I remember. So I have no nostalgic glasses. But I have read it as an adult since then, and even though it is not thorough enough for me, it is definitely open enough for many.)

Personally, I've always loved B2. I played it back then and I've ran it a lot of times. So versatile, there's a ton of stuff that you can do with it. And, BTW, the lack of a story-line is a definite plus for me.