D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[W'rkncacnter]

That's largely due to magic items, rather than class features, and magic item use was one of the fighter's big perks compared to other classes.

well then either get fighters their magic items back (as opposed to relegating them to an optional part of the game) or adapt some of the advantages of magic items into class features (or create similarly powerful features). either way, if magic items made them fantastic and mythic, and if those abilities are what they need to keep up with everyone else, why not make it happen?

(personally i'd prefer baking more of the fighter's power into class features just because hiding that power behind magic items creates what i think is an unnecessary layer of obfuscation that can easily result in fighters getting shafted by an unexperienced or malicious DM but that's a tangent)

 

[Mort]

That only works with the Attack action. So you can't do that between Flurry of Blows attacks.


You haven't been counting it for the Monk either, so fair is fair. Plus Fighters actually have ways of improving their chances of those attacks still hitting.


Fighter can reroll it too with Indomitable (lousy as the 2014 version of it was).


That ability doesn't even work in a lot of cases because to take that action, you have to be in control of your characters' actions. And a lot of Fear and Charm effects take control of your characters' actions away.


Within a ranged weapon's normal range why would I be attacking with disadvantage?


Better than going against CON saves.


4*(1d10+5) = 42. Over two rounds that's 84.


At the cost of double the ki. For only 13 points more. If I'm going to be spending ki at double the rate, I'd better get a lot more than just a 13 net gain.


Which will never meaningfully happen against something with Legendary Resistance. By the time you mulched through all that boss' auto-saves, it was likely going to die from something or someone else that round anyway.


Wait, we're talking about Wholeness of Body here. Do you even pay attention to your own argument?


Concluding stuff based on experience has no value. Because everyone's experience is different. What were you fighting in each of those encounters? What was the encounter design? Who else was in the party? Etc., etc.

All you have is anecdotal evidence, and that will never fly. Because if that's all you have to go by it's always your word against theirs.


Clearly you do not know much, then, because they absolutely are the weakest in 2014.

Tell me, are you going to claim the 2014 Monk is better than the 2024 Monk?

One confound with 2014 monks, how often the party was allowed to rest. If the DM allowed the group to rest/reset whenever they wanted, monks performed better. If the DM didn't, monks ran out of gas FAST. Too many of their abilities required very significant Ki output.

2024 has been a huge improvement on that, with some abilities that previously required ki (step of the wind, patient defense) free unless you want to do extra with it. Plus at level 2 you easily regain focus points.

 

[Zardnaar]

Weapon Masteries come to mind. I have heard people say they are unneeded, slow down or complicate play, or are unnecessary power creep.

That well depends on the person and the mastery.

But yes all of that can be true imho.

 

[Zardnaar]

and then they'll go back to adnd where a fighter can shrug off an adult red's breath attack before proceeding to solo it in a fight like that's not fantastic or mythic

I've seen an AD&D fighter solo an adult dragon in 2E. In 1 round.

 

[ECMO3]

At the cost of double the ki. For only 13 points more. If I'm going to be spending ki at double the rate, I'd better get a lot more than just a 13 net gain.

Ok time to bring some real math into this discussion assuming an actual Monster.

Against an Ancient Red Dragon (2014 version) AC22 +16 Con save with 3 legendaries

A 2014 Monk using FOB, Focused Aim and Stunning Strike over 2 rounds averages 57 damage and uses 9.6 ki on average

A 2014 Monk using FOB, Focused Aim and Stunning Strike on the first round and QP on the second round averages 83 damage and uses 7.8 ki on average.

If we take Stunning Strike out:

A 2014 Monk using FOB and Focused Aim without Stunning Strike averages 57 damage and uses 4.4 ki on average

A 2014 Monk using FOB and Focused Aim on Round 1 and QP on the second round averages 83 damage and uses 5.2 ki on average*

This analysis includes crits, advantage for stun and legendary resistance

* Both of these assume the Monk trying QP uses flurry of Blows on the 2nd round if they do not hit at all on the first round (1.5% chance).

The base 57DPR Monk numbers above are without any subclass. For comparison a Fighter with no suclass, GWF and a Greatsword does 57 average average per round or 114 over two rounds burning both Action Surges.

If that Fighter is a battlemaster he does 100 DPR in 1 round and 157 over 2 rounds using all his dice on precision and Trip attack and all his action surges.

A Long Death Monk using Touch of the Long Death twice in a row does 121 over 2 rounds if the dragon relies on his saves or 110 if he is going to use Legendaries to lower the damage on a failed save. Note this includes no bonus actions, but does use all of his ki.

All you have is anecdotal evidence, and that will never fly.

As opposed to less anecdotal evidence and what you claim other people have said but can provide no conclusive proof.

Oh and I also have math on my side.

Tell me, are you going to claim the 2014 Monk is better than the 2024 Monk?

It depends on what you mean mean by better.

Is the 2014 Monk more powerful than the 2024 Monk? No, it is not even close. In tier 4 the 2014 Monk is well below most (maybe all?) of the 2024 non-casters and all the casters as well.

Is the 2014 Monk more fun to play with other 2014 characters than the 2024 Monk is with other 2024 characters? Yes absolutely.

 

[Mort]

Is the 2014 Monk more fun to play with other 2014 characters than the 2024 Monk is with other 2024 characters? Yes absolutely.

I'll let someone else check the math, but this statement?

It's subjective, so saying "absolutely" is a HUGE stretch.

But, IMO:

The 2024 monk is much closer in effectiveness to other classes than the 2014 monk- that ALONE likely makes it much more fun to play in a group. More importantly, the 2024 monk is much more likely to maintain its resources (focus instead of Ki now) for much longer (the abilities are less resource draining and there is a focus recovery mechanic) which also will make it much more fun to play along with the other classes.

 

[ECMO3]

I'll let someone else check the math, but this statement?

It's subjective, so saying "absolutely" is a HUGE stretch.

But, IMO:

The 2024 monk is much closer in effectiveness to other classes than the 2014 monk- that ALONE likely makes it much more fun to play in a group. More importantly, the 2024 monk is much more likely to maintain its resources (focus instead of Ki now) for much longer (the abilities are less resource draining and there is a focus recovery mechanic) which also will make it much more fun to play along with the other classes.

I agree with all this, but more fun to play is an entirely subjective metric, so absolutely refers to my perspective.

 

[Zardnaar]

Monks 2014 big problem was the -5/+10 feats existing. Sword and board and dual wielding had similar problems.

I liked them lvl 1-4 and 14+. That middle bits the hard part.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Monks 2014 big problem was the -5/+10 feats existing. Sword and board and dual wielding had similar problems.

you mean how GWM/SS builds outclassed what they could achieve in damage so much it made them seem underwhelming by comparison?

 

[Zardnaar]

you mean how GWM/SS builds outclassed what they could achieve in damage so much it made them seem underwhelming by comparison?

Yeah. That and focus on white room theory crafting for damage.

My monk was fun and didn't feel left behind but I wasn't running with powergamers.

5E mobsters are so easy that Monk, dualwielder or whatever deals with them fine.

At levels peopke actually play the good Monks were fine. The other kicker is point buy vs rolled stats. Anyone benefits from high scores Monks are another level though.

High-volume also varies how DM runs it. Eg how many saves one might need to make.

Monks "suck" because they were comparatively weak where it matters most (5-8) or at the real end game (9-12).

Theres way to many * as well. Its complicated, newbie don't know how bad targeting con saves are etc.