D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[James Gasik]

i mostly agree with your post but i'm catching on one thing here, some of which might just be your meaning in the phrasing of it in which case might you clarify for me, but my objection is, do martial players really desire less 'buttons' for their characters? one of the biggest complaints i tend to hear is that they have very few reliable levers to influence the game with, vaguely defined martial abilities are IMO frequent targets of being shortchanged and given less use than they're worth, just look at how badly skills get it, martial players want just as badly as casters, if not more so, the ability to say 'this is an ability that i have the capability to consistently and reliably perform and will be performing right now'

edit: so i imagine a martial would much prefer a hypothetical ability that said Mighty Leaps: through extensive training you can jump incredible distances far greater than ordinary folk, when you jump you can use the formula for height and distance mentioned in the jump spell, as it gives solid numbers rather than an equivalent ability that left off that last sentence and left it vague what qualifies as 'incredible distances'

The kind of people I'm talking about do not want any superhuman abilities on their Fighter at all. All stop. No jumping 30' into the air, no slashing arrows in mid-flight, no cleaving spell effects in half, nothing they would consider to be "magical".

 

[CreamCloud0]

The kind of people I'm talking about do not want any superhuman abilities on their Fighter at all. All stop. No jumping 30' into the air, no slashing arrows in mid-flight, no cleaving spell effects in half, nothing they would consider to be "magical".

okay, but how does that relate to martial 'buttons'? how are you defining that term in this conversation/context?

 

[Shadowedeyes]

So you had a Wizard, Paladin, Cleric and Monk. What other classes did you have?

I think a Bladesinger is the best martial you can build in 2014. The Bladesingers that have leaned into weapon fighting really excelled at that. It is not as true using the 2024 rules because the other martials were improved so much.

We had a Warlock for awhile before the player had to drop out for real life stuff. There was a Rogue near the end that joined, but I couldn't make much comparison on that character given how little time they were in the campaign. I'd assume that Monk probably could possibly out damage her though.

 

[James Gasik]

okay, but how does that relate to martial 'buttons'? how are you defining that term in this conversation/context?

Weapon Masteries come to mind. I have heard people say they are unneeded, slow down or complicate play, or are unnecessary power creep.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Yes you can, you can move between your attacks. The only way you are not getting them is if they are not close enough to you.

That only works with the Attack action. So you can't do that between Flurry of Blows attacks.

You are not counting accuracy in here. GWM is not going to add 80. On some enemies it will add less than 1.

You haven't been counting it for the Monk either, so fair is fair. Plus Fighters actually have ways of improving their chances of those attacks still hitting.

But they still are way more vulnerable to this. Not a little bit a lot. A Monk is going to have a 20 Wisdom at this level and can reroll a fail

Fighter can reroll it too with Indomitable (lousy as the 2014 version of it was).

and can cancel Fear or Charmed with an action.

That ability doesn't even work in a lot of cases because to take that action, you have to be in control of your characters' actions. And a lot of Fear and Charm effects take control of your characters' actions away.

With disadvantage and if you have a high Wisdom probably without a high damage modifier either.

Within a ranged weapon's normal range why would I be attacking with disadvantage?

Trip attack is not very effective for improving accuracy at this level due to the Strength saving throw.

Better than going against CON saves.

I don't see how you are getting 84 damage from a normal FOB, not counting subclass.

4*(1d10+5) = 42. Over two rounds that's 84.

So more, so it is better like I said!

At the cost of double the ki. For only 13 points more. If I'm going to be spending ki at double the rate, I'd better get a lot more than just a 13 net gain.

No, that is worst case scenario for QP. Best case it fails its save and loses all of its hit points.

Which will never meaningfully happen against something with Legendary Resistance. By the time you mulched through all that boss' auto-saves, it was likely going to die from something or someone else that round anyway.

Sure and as demonstrated above it does more damage, even on a made save.



You did 55 if the target fails its save, or all its hit points if it doesn't, which is more

Wait, we're talking about Wholeness of Body here. Do you even pay attention to your own argument?

I am the one of us who actually has a lot of experience playing at this level, playing many sessions with high level Monks (and every other class) at the table and basing my conclusions on experience instead of theorycrafting and 2 one-shots. If someone in this discussion is out of their depth it is not me, it is you.

Concluding stuff based on experience has no value. Because everyone's experience is different. What were you fighting in each of those encounters? What was the encounter design? Who else was in the party? Etc., etc.

All you have is anecdotal evidence, and that will never fly. Because if that's all you have to go by it's always your word against theirs.

I don't need to prove anything. I know that Monks are not the weakest non-caster in tier 4. They are below average overall, but they are the best of the 4 non-casters.

Clearly you do not know much, then, because they absolutely are the weakest in 2014.

Tell me, are you going to claim the 2014 Monk is better than the 2024 Monk?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Weapon Masteries come to mind. I have heard people say they are unneeded, slow down or complicate play, or are unnecessary power creep.

are you describing martial players in general or are you referring to a specific subset, i had previously thought you were discussing the former in your post saying how 'martial players don't want buttons' but this makes me think you're talking about the latter.

 

[James Gasik]

are you describing martial players in general or are you referring to a specific subset, i had previously thought you were discussing the former in your post saying how 'martial players don't want buttons' but this makes me think you're talking about the latter.

Specific subset, ie, the people who want to be "Everyman Fighters". I can't speak to martial players in general because the only real data we have on them is that there were more Fighters made using D&D Beyond than any other class. How many were played and to what level is unknown. Supposedly the 2024 Fighter got high approval ratings out of those polled, but that's not really representative of anything either. I just know that in many previous threads, someone might say "I think Fighters should be mythic and be able to do fantastic things", and that has a high probability of having someone say "That's not what the Fighter is about, I don't want that".

Or when someone says "I think all Fighters should have had Superiority Dice and Battlemaster Maneuvers" there will quickly be someone who says "No, thank you."

And maybe I'm wrong in lumping all these guys together, lol. Maybe not every person who wants the Fighter to be no more powerful than "A Guy at the Gym" has a problem with weapon masteries, for example. Arguments about class identity and what a given class be about/be able to do or not do have been going on for a long time in the hobby.