D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[UngeheuerLich]

go back and relook at those, I don't think any of them claimed a high-level Monk was weak. Most of them evaluated it in general, not specifically in tier 4.

Also Treantmonk specifically says he does not weight high level features in his ratings because most people do not play at those levels.

I am sure Treantmonk and Colby know what they are talking about. Even though they are looking through certain glasses.
I don't know about Dungeon dudes.

 

[ECMO3]

So ... things that don't actually defeat enemies. Damage and control win battles, and Monks in 2014 are not good at those. These abilities you listed help you survive a bit, and that's it, and they're no better at that than, well, pretty much anything any other martial gets.

Survival is a big part of combat, especially at high level. Further this is not entirely true, several Monks can Nova a lot better than other 2014 non-casters and almost all of them can control a lot better than 2014 non-casters. The best control options for Monks are subclass abilities, not Stunning Strike. But Stunning Strike, as weak as it is, is still better than other non-casters have at this level.

Such as?

Diamond Soul (both the proficiency and the reroll), Empty Body, Ki-fueled attack, Breath of the Dragon, Evasion, Aspect of the Wyrm, Exrplosive Fury, Shadow Arts, Shadow Step, Tipsy Sway, Blindsight, Ascendant Breath, Resistance, Unerring Accuracy, Touch of Death, Hour of Reaping, Mastery of Death, Touch of Long Death, Frightful Presence, Wings Unfurled, Empowered Arms, Fury of Healing and Harm (the Harm one), Hand of ulitmate Mercy, Wholeness of Body, Tranquility, Quivering Palm, step of the wind, Evasion.

In tier 4 all of these things are generally more powerful than Stunning Strike or Flurry of Blows. For the ones that are available at lower levels it is not true for all of them at lower levels.

Enough of them to know you're dead wrong.

So you claim. So how many is that?

 

[ECMO3]

3 times per day is not "repeatedly."

Actually twice a day is repeatedly.

Why does that matter whether it's a whole 1-20 campaign or whether it's a one-shot? The adventuring day works the same way.

Because I don't think seeing something in play in 2 sessions is the same as seeing it in 20 or so.

So you actually like casters being leaps and bounds better than Fighters

Yes. I've said that many times on this forum, over and over again. It is not just Fighters though, it is all non-casters.

If Fighters wan't abilities equivalent to spells they should find a way to get spells IMO. The good thing is there are lots of ways to do this in both 2024 and 5E.

Obviously, I think you're wrong to have that preference, but you're free to be wrong.

Am I really? You seem to be pretty upset about it and are invalidating my opinions over and over.

No, I understand it now. You like it when martials have weak high-level abilities and can't measure up to casters.

Ok first off lets, be clear. I am not talking about martials, I am talking about non-casters. Those are two different things. All Paladins, all Rangers, some Rogues, some Fighters and even some Monks are casters. I have no problem with those casters doing spell-like things.

That said, yes when I play a non-caster, I generally don't want them to have over the top features that make no sense for the fiction around a class. If I wanted that I would be playing a caster and one of the things I liked about 2014 design is that it largely held to this. 2024 doesn't as much.

 

[ECMO3]

I am sure Treantmonk and Colby know what they are talking about. Even though they are looking through certain glasses.
I don't know about Dungeon dudes.

And I could not find where either of them said high level Monks were weak. I did find where Treantmonk, who evaluated over all levels not tier 4, actually said he does not weight high-level features as much.

If they actually said this tell me where to find it. I put what I found from those four above.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Survival is a big part of combat, especially at high level.

But so are doing damage and control. Without being effective in at least one of those, survival doesn't matter.

Further this is not entirely true, several Monks can Nova a lot better than other 2014 non-casters

lolwut? Not even close, dude. Nothing any Monk can do even comes close to matching a Fighter Action Surge turn. Your credibility is tanking with every single thing you say.

Diamond Soul (both the proficiency and the reroll), Empty Body, Ki-fueled attack, Breath of the Dragon, Evasion, Aspect of the Wyrm, Exrplosive Fury, Shadow Arts, Shadow Step, Tipsy Sway, Blindsight, Ascendant Breath, Resistance, Unerring Accuracy, Touch of Death, Hour of Reaping, Mastery of Death, Touch of Long Death, Frightful Presence, Wings Unfurled, Empowered Arms, Fury of Healing and Harm (the Harm one), Hand of ulitmate Mercy, Wholeness of Body, Tranquility, Quivering Palm, step of the wind, Evasion.

None of those are outright better uses of ki.

And that you put 2014 Wholeness of Body, Tranquility, and Quivering Palm on the list tells me I should not take ANYTHING you say seriously. The 2014 versions of those abilities demonstrably suck. Quivering Palm especially so and infamously so. You can't use that ability in 2014 until your second turn in a battle, when the enemy you were trying to kill might already either be dead or close enough to death that you could've just punched it to death.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Because I don't think seeing something in play in 2 sessions is the same as seeing it in 20 or so.

Why? The mechanics are the same either way. 2 sessions, as long as they involve full adventuring days and a variety of encounter types, is a good sample size.

Am I really? You seem to be pretty upset about it and are invalidating my opinions over and over.

Just because you're free to be wrong doesn't mean you're free to not be called out on it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Why? The mechanics are the same either way. 2 sessions, as long as they involve full adventuring days and a variety of encounter types, is a good sample size.


Just because you're free to be wrong doesn't mean you're free to not be called out on it.

He's right about what the youtubers quote.

A lot are to focused in DPS and a lot is tgeirycrating.

I have played high level 5E. What messes up martials isn't lack of damage but poor saves. Dragon fear can't get close.

And I've played the 2014 monk. I kinda like it. Damage was fine except vs the -5/+10 feats and tgey were borked.

Wouldn't quote Treantmonk to much. Sone circles online he's regarded as a joke as he screws up in a few of his videos and misses a lot of interactions.

Colby and the Dungeon Dudes are a lot better at spotting those interactions.
Newbis turn up spouting the Treantmonk gospel sometimes. He's way to focused on white room DPR and contrived situations.

He's semi useless at utility, control, defensive and non combat stuff.

Colby stuff is to much theory crafting and hustle build often don't cone online until late tier 2 or early tier 3.

Probably those builds make good thumbnails. XYZ 400 damage (on paper at level 14). Treantmonk sonething similar.

You're almost better off watching BG build guides and adapting them. Tge good ones cover eaxmch level from 1 and don't focus on being good ten levels later.

 

[ECMO3]

But so are doing damage and control. Without being effective in at least one of those, survival doesn't matter.

And like I said, most of them are better controllers than Fighters

lolwut? Not even close, dude. Nothing any Monk can do even comes close to matching a Fighter Action Surge turn. Your credibility is tanking with every single thing you say.

A 2014 20th level Fighter gets 8 attacks with action surge. With a 2d6 weapon those are going to do 96 damage if all hit and if the monster is not resistant, which a lot are at this level and he can do it 2 turns in a row.

A 20th level Long Death Monk can do 120 in turn 1 and 98 in turn 2.

A 20th level Drunken Master can do 73.5 for 20 straight turns

None of those are outright better uses of ki.

I did not say all of them were "outright" better uses of ki and not even all of them use ki (maybe most don't use ki?). All of them are situational as is FOB and SS.

I will say it again here. Note the underlined:

"In tier 4 all of these things are generally more powerful than Stunning Strike or Flurry of Blows. For the ones that are available at lower levels it is not true for all of them at lower levels."

I stand by that. At high level the things I mentioned are all generally more powerful than Stunning Strike or Flurry of Blows.

And that you put 2014 Wholeness of Body, Tranquility, and Quivering Palm on the list tells me I should not take ANYTHING you say seriously.

A lot of this is underpinned exactly by what you said earlier - Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows are not that great at high level, it is not that hard to be better than them. All of the things I mentioned are generally better than them. Some of them are WAY better.

Of the three you mentioned:

Quivering Palm is 3ki and does a minimum of 55 damage, with a failed save it kills any enemy. Compare this to FOB which does 10.5 or 31.5 over 3 rounds if you spend 3 ki and hit every time or Stunning Strike which usually does nothing at this level.

Tranquility is a permanent Sanctuary every day until you break it and it costs no resources.

Wholeness of body heals you 60 points at 20th level and uses no ki.

At high level those things are GENERALLY better than stunning strike or FOB

The 2014 versions of those abilities demonstrably suck. Quivering Palm especially so and infamously so.

Stunning Strike and especially Flurry of Blows demonstrably suck at 20th level. The term "better" does not mean awesome when you are comparing it to something that is not a good high-level feature. Some of the features I listed are awesome, some are not, but all of them are just GENERALLY better than FOB and SS at level 20, but that is not a very high bar.

 

[Mort]

That said, yes when I play a non-caster, I generally don't want them to have over the top features that make no sense for the fiction around a class.

This argument never makes sense to me.

A non caster fighter exists in the same world as the casters. By a certain level has seen what they can do and presumably figured out some ways to mitigate - without magic. It makes perfect sense in the fiction.

 

[Gladius Legis]

And like I said, most of them are better controllers than Fighters

Low bar. Fighters are more about damage, and they are far and away better at that than 2014 Monks. That's why I said one of those two things. 2014 Monks still suck at control compared to pretty much any other class for whom control is their MO.

A 2014 20th level Fighter gets 8 attacks with action surge. With a 2d6 weapon those are going to do 96 damage if all hit and if the monster is not resistant, which a lot are at this level and he can do it 2 turns in a row.

You intentionally neglected A LOT of other things that add to the Fighter's damage just to make the 2014 Monk look better than it is. Great Weapon Fighting, Great Weapon Master, Superiority Dice, damage bonuses from any magic weapons the Fighter is likely wielding at 20th-level. Moreover, Fighters have ways of making sure their attacks actually connect (i.e. Precision Attack from Battle Master, Samurai Fighting Spirit + Tireless Spirit).

Not to mention that with 8 attacks, even some of those hitting nearly always ensures you're going to do some solid damage as a Fighter. Not nearly as true for the Monk.

A 20th level Long Death Monk can do 120 in turn 1 and 98 in turn 2.

Only if the enemy fails its CON save, and CON is the highest save by far for monsters you fight at 20th level. Legendary Resistance is also a thing for most things you'll fight at that level. So those numbers are a lot more likely to be halved. Also many things at that level (fiends, especially undead) are resistant to necrotic damage. Oh, and after you blow all your ki on those two rounds? You're useless until the next short rest, stuck with nothing to do other than your basic two weak unarmed attacks and your Martial Arts attack!

A 20th level Drunken Master can do 73.5 for 20 straight turns

Only against multiple targets. Good luck being in a situation in which you're going to be surrounded by 4 enemies every turn to get all those attacks.

Quivering Palm is 3ki and does a minimum of 55 damage, with a failed save it kills any enemy.

That you need two whole turns to set up. Which I mentioned before, so convenient of you to ignore that. And against a boss (which you'd normally want to use such a thing on) is not likely to kill considering that boss likely has Legendary Resistance. Also, again, CON save, which is bad at high levels.

Compare this to FOB which does 10.5 or 31.5 over 3 rounds if you spend 3 ki and hit every time or Stunning Strike which usually does nothing at this level.

At 17th level, which is when you get Quivering Palm, Flurry of Blows is actually adding 21 if all hits connect, since you conveniently forgot to add ability modifiers to the damage of those hits. Over 3 rounds that's 63 from Flurry itself, plus the damage from your Attack action which by the way you're not getting to use on the round you trigger the Quivering Palm damage.

Tranquility is a permanent Sanctuary every day until you break it and it costs no resources.

I know what it does. And I also know it has no practical purpose whatsoever. Which is why it got replaced in 2024.

Wholeness of body heals you 60 points at 20th level and uses no ki.

Takes a whole action. You're not attacking that round. Also only 1/day. Sucks.

The term "better" does not mean awesome when you are comparing it to something that is not a good high-level feature. Some of the features I listed are awesome, some are not, but all of them are just GENERALLY better than FOB and SS at level 20, but that is not a very high bar.

None of them are awesome. And yeah FOB and SS suck, that's why they (well FOB anyway) got improved for 2024.