D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[Zardnaar]

High level 2014 Monks need an *.

Can be good *(dice rolled ability score, How DM handles magic items, player skill, subclass).

I impressed power gamers with my monk. They couldn't really figure out how to make it sing.

The mercy and open handed were the good ones though. The rest were lacking.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes I agree with you on this, they were comparatively bettter than other 1E classes



If he was in melee and not using a huge slow weapon this was true. I would flat out say it was rare for a Magic-User to get off most high level spells in melee. Even at high level you generally ended up going to things like MAgic Missile because they came out faster.





In 5E every class can already shrug off a lot of things and with the save every round and/or concentration effects are not nearly as permanent for a fight as they were in 1E. Given that I don't think 5E fighters should have any more ability to shrug it off then they already had.

I think that spells should have been changed to save every turn.
Then we would not need such an ability.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that spells should have been changed to save every turn.
Then we would not need such an ability.

Save every turn still isn't great if you fail 75-95% of the time.

That's the big screw up in 2E to 3E.

Indomitable plus rerolls is not quite guaranteed save but I haven't seen it flunked yet.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Save every turn still isn't great if you fail 75-95% of the time.

That's the big screw up in 2E to 3E.

Indomitable plus rerolls is not quite guaranteed save but I haven't seen it flunked yet.

I thought about some middle ground...
Maybe half level bonus and an extra roll at the start of turn instead of end of turn.

 

[Zardnaar]

I thought about some middle ground...
Maybe half level bonus and an extra roll at the start of turn instead of end of turn.

I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Gladius Legis]

They do suck but other abilities don't, particularly when combined with Monk or subclass features.

Proficiency in all save is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Resistance to ALL damage is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Being able to end Charmed or Frightened automatically with an action is better than these at high level

The basic free Monk movement is better than these at high level and step of the Wind is generally a better use of ki.

Evasion is better than these at high levels, especially when combined with resistance.

So ... things that don't actually defeat enemies. Damage and control win battles, and Monks in 2014 are not good at those. These abilities you listed help you survive a bit, and that's it, and they're no better at that than, well, pretty much anything any other martial gets.

That is before we start talking about subclass abilities and all these things are better than Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike at high level.

Such as?

You still have not answeredmy question though: How many Monks have you seen played at level 20?

Enough of them to know you're dead wrong.

 

[Gladius Legis]

He saves repeatedly on things he shoudl not save on and it makes no sense to save on.

3 times per day is not "repeatedly."

Ok so you have not played a single campaign, it is based on theory and a couple one shots.

Why does that matter whether it's a whole 1-20 campaign or whether it's a one-shot? The adventuring day works the same way.

They should have way more ways. They are casters.

But I don't need to compare a Fighter to a caster to know what I want in a Fighter.

So you actually like casters being leaps and bounds better than Fighters. Gotcha. Glad you admitted it finally. Obviously, I think you're wrong to have that preference, but you're free to be wrong.

What is not making sense. I liked the old version of Indomitable better, how is that hard to understand?

No, I understand it now. You like it when martials have weak high-level abilities and can't measure up to casters.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Who are these "plenty of people" that have played Monks and said they are bad in tier 4?

Treantmonk, Colby, Pack Tactics, even Dungeon Dudes. Whatever you may think of any of them, I'm pretty confident saying they know what they're talking about.

 

[Zardnaar]

Treantmonk, Colby, Pack Tactics, even Dungeon Dudes. Whatever you may think of any of them, I'm pretty confident saying they know what they're talking about.

They've been wrong before.

Treantmonk missed a key part of a build that ramped up damage a lot.

Dungeon Dudes are kinda better. They rated Mercy Monk well.

Colby is very focused on builds that switch online way to late imho.

Pack Tactics not sure about.

 

[ECMO3]

Treantmonk, Colby, Pack Tactics, even Dungeon Dudes. Whatever you may think of any of them, I'm pretty confident saying they know what they're talking about.

When I said to give me an example, I actually wanted someone who claims Monks are weak in tier 4 like you are. I did not find that from the people we mention.

go back and relook at those, I don't think any of them claimed a high-level Monk was weak. Most of the youtubers evaluate it in general, not level-by-level or specifically in tier 4. If you are talking from level 1-20 Monk is the weakest class, if you are talking about level 16-20 it is the strongest non-caster.

Also Treantmonk specifically says he does not weight high level features in his ratings because most people do not play at those levels.

Edit some additional detail since I looked at the people you mentioned:

Treantmonk: Treantmonk rating of Monks like I said is specifically not focused on high level abilities. Furthermore one of the big issues he speaks of is a lack of ki and the very limited use of their ki features, but this is not a problem in tier 4.

Colby: I can't find a review of the Monk class from Colby, I did find lots of subclass and multiclass builds though and I also got this snippet - "As much as I and others like to bemoan the relative underpoweredness of the Monk they do get a bunch of stuff that is useful and cool that doesn't show up on the spreadhsheet .... they do suffer from scaling and damage issues, but maybe we should not discount all the super cool and useful features they get so much"

Pack Tactics: Again could not find a video reviewing Monk overall as a class but he said on one of his videos "I used to believe Monks were the worst, but I have changed my mind" followed with on another video "we ignore Flurry of Blows because it is a trap"

Dungeon Dudes: I browsed their review from 7 years agon and I did not see anything in there saying or even suggesting they were weak in tier 4. I did not listen to the whole thing because it is too lopng. I did find a couple of exerps though: "The are fast, they are fierce and they are dangerous .... a Monk can pretty much go anywhere, be anywhere on the battlefield ..."