D&D 5E (2024) 5.5 Fighter Best Eince 2E

[Gladius Legis]

*Maze doesn't have a save in 2024 5E either, but a fighter is rarely going to spend more than a few turns there .... or 1 turn if he is a champion. He is going to escape from it quicker than any other class.

2024 Maze is a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check. A Fighter likely has neither a high INT nor Investigation proficiency, so they're rolling that check with a base bonus somewhere around +0 (or even -1 if it dumped INT outright). Again, against DC 20. Tactical Mind and Heroic Inspiration alone are NOT going to guarantee a 1-turn escape for a Champion.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fighter indomitable, Monk and Paladins are all attractive due to save boosts.

Ymmv.

 

[ECMO3]

Yeah. Tell me something new.
Of course they were by far notnimmune to that. But a fighter comparably was better than most other characters.

Yes I agree with you on this, they were comparatively bettter than other 1E classes

I was recently educated that in 1e, a fighter had a good chance to jever have the caster cast a spell.

If he was in melee and not using a huge slow weapon this was true. I would flat out say it was rare for a Magic-User to get off most high level spells in melee. Even at high level you generally ended up going to things like MAgic Missile because they came out faster.

So a fighter being able to shrug off a lot of effects is a real good thing to have.

In 5E every class can already shrug off a lot of things and with the save every round and/or concentration effects are not nearly as permanent for a fight as they were in 1E. Given that I don't think 5E fighters should have any more ability to shrug it off then they already had.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes I agree with you on this, they were comparatively bettter than other 1E classes



If he was in melee and not using a huge slow weapon this was true. I would flat out say it was rare for a Magic-User to get off most high level spells in melee. Even at high level you generally ended up going to things like MAgic Missile because they came out faster.





In 5E every class can already shrug off a lot of things and with the save every round and/or concentration effects are not nearly as permanent for a fight as they were in 1E. Given that I don't think 5E fighters should have any more ability to shrug it off then they already had.

Assuming speed rules were used.

When it was daggers and darts tended to pelt spellcasters (good vs stoneskin).

Using an item was often a good idea fir wizard due to being interrupted.

 

[ECMO3]

2024 Maze is a DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check. A Fighter likely has neither a high INT nor Investigation proficiency, so they're rolling that check with a base bonus somewhere around +0 (or even -1 if it dumped INT outright). Again, against DC 20. Tactical Mind and Heroic Inspiration alone are NOT going to guarantee a 1-turn escape for a Champion.

I didn't say it gauranteed it, but they will not be in there long with heroic Inspiration and Tactical Mind .... even with a -1 and keep in mind a Fighter can use action surge, meaning he can make 2 checks a turn to get out unless for some reason he has no uses left. Like I said a high level Champion will usually spend one turn in there, other fighters a few turns.

 

[ECMO3]

Flurry of Blows is the Monk's main damage feature, regardless of level.

Stunning Strike is the Monk's main control feature, regardless of level.

I don't know what you mean by "main feature" these features were not effective at high level. they were weak unless you had a subclass boost to FOB. Other uses of ki are more effective, way more effective.

What is not weak is the Monks other abilities and some of their subclass abilities

Both of them, in 2014, suck. And the 2014 Monk gets NOTHING at higher levels to make up for how bad those fall off in their respective capacities.

They do suck but other abilities don't, particularly when combined with Monk or subclass features.

Proficiency in all save is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Resistance to ALL damage is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Being able to end Charmed or Frightened automatically with an action is better than these at high level

The basic free Monk movement is better than these at high level and step of the Wind is generally a better use of ki.

Evasion is better than these at high levels, especially when combined with resistance.

That is before we start talking about subclass abilities and all these things are better than Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike at high level.






You still have not answeredmy question though: How many Monks have you seen played at level 20?

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't know what you mean by "main feature" these features were not effective at high level. they were weak unless you had a subclass boost to FOB. Other uses of ki are more effective, way more effective.

What is not weak is the Monks other abilities and some of their subclass abilities



They do suck but other abilities don't, particularly when combined with Monk or subclass features.

Proficiency in all save is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Resistance to ALL damage is WAY better than these and ALL Monks get that

Being able to end Charmed or Frightened automatically with an action is better than these at high level

The basic free Monk movement is better than these at high level and step of the Wind is generally a better use of ki.

Evasion is better than these at high levels, especially when combined with resistance.

That is before we start talking about subclass abilities and all these things are better than Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike at high level.






You still have not answeredmy question though: How many Monks have you seen played at level 20?

I'm a permanent DM we tend to play to around 10-14th level.

And what's gonna mess you up is fear effects and flunked wisdom saves. Charisma and int to a lesser extent.

I spammed FoB a lot because open hand.

Monk sanage was decent except vs the -5/+10 feats which distorted things a lot. Theres a reason they got nuked. I called those feats out 2015 one of the earlier ones to do so.

 

[ECMO3]

How has it been disruptive? You keep repeating this claim but you never give any examples or analyses. The only way I can see it being "disruptive" is if you're one of those killer DMs who was upset you couldn't CC the Fighter out of commission.

He saves repeatedly on things he shoudl not save on and it makes no sense to save on.

2 one-shots. And in neither one was the Fighter dominating action. It was always a full spellcaster of some sort doing so.

Ok so you have not played a single campaign, it is based on theory and a couple one shots.

"Getting away with murder" is a figure of speech, so it's hilarious you're taking what I said literally. What I meant was that casters have many more ways at that level of disrupting the game than the Fighter does. That was true in 2014, and it is still unfortunately true in 2024 even if the Fighter has closed that gap somewhat.

They should have way more ways. They are casters.

Because you're comparing two different types of characters at the same level of play. It's OK to do that, contrary to what you believe.

But I don't need to compare a Fighter to a caster to know what I want in a Fighter.

I never said the Fighter should get spells. That is a ridiculous straw man. What I am getting at is that Fighters (and all martials) should have abilities that are comparable in effect on the game to what casters get at those levels, even if those abilities aren't spells.

No they should not in my opinion. A Fighter should not have abilities that are comparable to high level spells a caster gets. Neither should a Rogue or Barbarian IMO. That is exactly what I don't want.

2024 still falls short in that regard, but the new Indomitable at least closes that gap a little bit. Which obviously is offensive to your sensibilities for reasons you still haven't defined to satisfaction.

There are things I like better about 2024 and there are things I don't like in 2024. Indomitable is not something I like. I prefered the old version of Indomitable, I prefered the old version of Champion, I prefer the new version of Eldritch Knight.

You disagree and that is fine.

I'm having trouble understanding what you do want out of martials, because you're not making any sense.

What is not making sense. I liked the old version of Indomitable better, how is that hard to understand?

 

[Zardnaar]

But I don't need to compare a Fighter to a caster to know what I want in a Fighter.




No they should not in my opinion. A Fighter should not have abilities that are comparable to high level spells a caster gets. Neither should a Rogue or Barbarian IMO. That is exactly what I don't want.





There are things I like better about 2024 and there are things I don't like in 2024. Indomitable is not something I like. I prefered the old version of Indomitable, I prefered the old version of Champion, I prefer the new version of Eldritch Knight.

You disagree and that is fine.




What is not making sense. I liked the old version of Indomitable better, how is that hard to understand?

Depends on the ability for me.

A level 17 psi knight having something similar to foresight is fine for me. Assuming its a shorter duration.

Casting meteor swarm not so much (a dragon disciple fighter with a breath weapon dealing lots of damage is probably fine as well).

Depends on the ability, subclass and level.

 

[ECMO3]

It's your word against plenty of people who have broken down how bad 2014 Monks are, especially in tier 3 and 4.

Who are these "plenty of people" that have played Monks and said they are bad in tier 4?

If I hadn't played a 2014 Monk for myself at that level and found it every bit as unpleasant as their analyses suggested, then I'd still take their word over yours any day.

Who's analysis?