What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[zakael19]

I could start discussing it but I'll just let James(?) speak for himself:
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There's a lot of stuff in DS I see as trying to walk the line of "impactful without getting too complex." So you can stack things RAW in a way that say 5e may not allow, but not as far as the near-mandatory buff/debuff game I understand PF2 requires; or the hilarious maze that is 4e's +2s all over the place in multiple categories.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can understand that. But Draw Steel’s power roll mechanic just fits you into 1 of 3 tiered results by basically a table lookup.

So a roll of 3 on 2d10 but with double edge just grants the middle tier result which normally requires a 12-16. Practically getting +10 bonus for pitiful dice roll. But then the same double edge escalating a tier when the result was a 12, if it was two +2 (a +4) it would sad trombone into a 16 result getting a same tier 2, but because Draw Steel makes a double edge escalate the tier result a 12 goes straight to tier 3 best result (normally 17+).

I do like that double edge plus a single bane results in still having edge, none of the single disadvantage cancelling out multiple sources of advantage infuriation.

Well, without referencing the system I'm not going to say there might not be a good reason to do it that way in the context of other structural elements (I'm not going to give D&D the same benefit of the doubt because I understand its mechanical structure better), but it still doesn't strike me as ideal. I'll give you two steps is at least better than one, though.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I could start discussing it but I'll just let James(?) speak for himself:
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I'll give them the first part of this is at least an arguable point. The second one is the same defense Advantage/Disadvantage is let off on, and I roll my eyes about it there, so it doesn't sell me better here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There's a lot of stuff in DS I see as trying to walk the line of "impactful without getting too complex." So you can stack things RAW in a way that say 5e may not allow, but not as far as the near-mandatory buff/debuff game I understand PF2 requires; or the hilarious maze that is 4e's +2s all over the place in multiple categories.

I should note that PF2e has a maximum of about five steps you can play there, and some of them are hard to apply at will. That's because they compressed the modifier types from what it once was so you're not doing the 3e era "chase a dozen potential modifiers" thing.

 

[zakael19]

I should note that PF2e has a maximum of about five steps you can play there, and some of them are hard to apply at will. That's because they compressed the modifier types from what it once was so you're not doing the 3e era "chase a dozen potential modifiers" thing.

Yeah to me that’s still way too many for a game with a lot of tactical combat. My group of pretty on the ball and dedicated players were struggling to keep all the little bits of Daggerheart abilities straight 5 sessions in, in part because it actually can have quite a few steps and maths per roll. DS! would’ve likely been faster on a per-roll outcome adjudication standpoint.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah to me that’s still way too many for a game with a lot of tactical combat.

Not much more to say on the subject then. But I wanted to keep that visibible to people, because there's a lot of criticism that acts like its back in the 3e days of a good dozen modifiers.

(To make it clear, I didn't respond to the rest because I consider pursuit of speed almost always counterproductive).

 

[Campbell]

Just got done running the Road To Broadhurst. We had a blast. For a game with so many new mechanics we picked up real easy. From a GM's perspective the monsters were a lot of fun and super easy to manage. Malice spends felt really fun and added a lot of dynamism. The Fury moved enemies all over the board with glee - we did swap out the pregen fury for one with more forced movement and moves that had them bowling through enemies.

I have to say Negotiation felt the most natural of any social encounter system I have ever run and basically accomplishes what I feel Exalted 3rd Edition tries to do with Intimacies in a few pages with some fairly impactful player abilities that interacted with it.

 

[zakael19]

Just got done running the Road To Broadhurst. We had a blast. For a game with so many new mechanics we picked up real easy. From a GM's perspective the monsters were a lot of fun and super easy to manage. Malice spends felt really fun and added a lot of dynamism. The Fury moved enemies all over the board with glee - we did swap out the pregen fury for one with more forced movement and moves that had them bowling through enemies.

I have to say Negotiation felt the most natural of any social encounter system I have ever run and basically accomplishes what I feel Exalted 3rd Edition tries to do with Intimacies in a few pages with some fairly impactful player abilities that interacted with it.

That rat encounter looks inspired for something so early in a game experience.

 

[dbm]

I haven’t played DS yet but I have read through the Heroes book twice solidly to get my head around the new concepts and how they all work together. I think a big difference between DS and most other RPGs is the way Victories power you over time while Recoveries get consumed through attrition. This reads like a very cool dynamic which I think will radically affect play and pretty much destroy the ‘5 minute working day’ that can plague many systems (since victories reset to zero on a Respite). I really like it.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

@Campbell Tell em' Tell them how good Draw Steel was for game last night

Y'all are in for mucho fun!