D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

I go the other way. I value abilities/utility in the exploration and social pillars quite a bit because you usually win combat. You don't always win combat, and sometimes a few DPR might mean the difference between life and death for a PC, but 5E is built around the idea that you are going to win almost all your fights. The attrition model practically guarantees only the last 1-2 fights in a day are going to present a serious threat.

So, the combat pillar IS more objective to judge. And it IS fun to math out how one ability can eek out a few more DPR than another. But in my book, doing an extra 10 damage is worth much less than being able to find the safest path through a dungeon or being able to sweet talk a king.

To be clear, nobody should be a slouch at combat. Everyone should be able to meaningfully contribute towards the goal of beating monsters, and combat specialists DO ease the burden so other characters can focus on other things. There is value there. But the diminishing returns on squeezing out just a few more points of damage get huge very quickly.

Yeah i dint generally crunch out numbers tgat much. Great weapon fighting feat is good if you use heavy weapons level.

Chromatic Orb the more math heavy applications of it is farmed out to someone better at it.

 

[Valetudo]

I think too many people on these forums and others look at the power the class instead of the roleplaying you can do with all these nasty wizards. And they are still one of the strongest classes. Not like it turned into a 2014 monk all of a sudden.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think too many people on these forums and others look at the power the class instead of the roleplaying you can do with all these nasty wizards. And they are still one of the strongest classes. Not like it turned into a 2014 monk all of a sudden.

Any class can be role played though. That's more social pillar in any event.

They're not a bad class theyre a B over all and start out C tier climbing to S tier.

Its how long they take to get there is the issue and high level games functionally don't exist/very rare.

 

[Amphytrion]

I am a constant DM (not a player, so not particularly cheering for the wizard), but I agree with @Zardnaar's general point.

One problem is that the class doesn't have a flavorful core mechanic (say, the way sorcerers have metamagic). Some players look at it and find it empty when compared to similar spellcasters. If they had allowed a version of the altering of spells (which was in a UA somewhere), that might have attracted those bored by the basic class design.

Another problem is the power differential in combat, which is a 5.24 aggravation to the issue. Warlocks, sorcerers and bards all got significant buffs, and the wizard got none. I believe the logic is that the the 5.24 wizard would "make up" for his new comparative combat weakness with utility spells. I think that was a very bad idea, due to a few reasons:

(1) Exploration is an important part of the game, but one exploration encounter usually lasts far less than a combat encounter. Even if my table has more exploration encounters than combat encounters, in real world time, the longest encounters are combat encounters. Players like to feel useful for combat, because if they are outclassed by peers, it really drags on.

(2) The design of exploration spells doesn't really engage with the pillar as much as it bypasses it entirely. In the fiction, the spell may have been of great help, but to the player, that doesn't register as an experience as rewarding as meaningfully contributing to combat. The player doesn't feel that the exploration spells "compensate" anything.

For example, an elaborate trap closes the doors of the room while water pours in! If the wizard didn't prepare water breathing, that is a dramatic exploration encounter we would typically resolve via rounds and checks. If the wizard has water breathing prepared, that spell is certainly very useful, but now the encounter is over, and it barely registered with the players. At the end of the night, no one remembers, no one talks about it, and the player doesn't feel good about the experience.

This holds true even in games in which combat is the least important pillar by far and doesn't occur every session, simply because when it does occur, it is really unpleasant for the player to fall behind the group in terms of combat efficiency.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am a constant DM (not a player, so not particularly cheering for the wizard), but I agree with @Zardnaar's general point.

One problem is that the class doesn't have a flavorful core mechanic (say, the way sorcerers have metamagic). Some players look at it and find it empty when compared to similar spellcasters. If they had allowed a version of the altering of spells (which was in a UA somewhere), that might have attracted those bored by the basic class design.

Another problem is the power differential in combat, which is a 5.24 aggravation to the issue. Warlocks, sorcerers and bards all got significant buffs, and the wizard got none. I believe the logic is that the the 5.24 wizard would "make up" for his new comparative combat weakness with utility spells. I think that was a very bad idea, due to a few reasons:

(1) Exploration is an important part of the game, but one exploration encounter usually lasts far less than a combat encounter. Even if my table has more exploration encounters than combat encounters, in real world time, the longest encounters are combat encounters. Players like to feel useful for combat, because if they are outclassed by peers, it really drags on.

(2) The design of exploration spells doesn't really engage with the pillar as much as it bypasses it entirely. In the fiction, the spell may have been of great help, but to the player, that doesn't register as an experience as rewarding as meaningfully contributing to combat. The player doesn't feel that the exploration spells "compensate" anything.

For example, an elaborate trap closes the doors of the room while water pours in! If the wizard didn't prepare water breathing, that is a dramatic exploration encounter we would typically resolve via rounds and checks. If the wizard has water breathing prepared, that spell is certainly very useful, but now the encounter is over, and it barely registered with the players. At the end of the night, no one remembers, no one talks about it, and the player doesn't feel good about the experience.

This holds true even in games in which combat is the least important pillar by far and doesn't occur every session, simply because when it does occur, it is really unpleasant for the player to fall behind the group in terms of combat efficiency.

They buffed the hell out of the other spellcasting classes. Except Cleric.

Wizards for the most part are 2014. The other classes more Tashas level.

 

[Amphytrion]

They buffed the hell out of the other spellcasting classes. Except Cleric.

Wizards for the most part are 2014. The other classes more Tashas level.

Yes, this is what I meant.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, this is what I meant.

Seen the new playtest ones?

 

[bedir than]

One problem is that the class doesn't have a flavorful core mechanic

The spellbook

 

[Amphytrion]

Seen the new playtest ones?

Only chatter about it (Dark Sun and Ravenloft rumors). I don't usually follow UAs or give feedback via them.

Anything new in particular?

 

[Zardnaar]

The spellbook

Its not that flavorful.

Mostly you get spels and your class features do stuff with those spells.

Sorcerers get spelks outside their class spell lists or dex÷cha to AC.

Clerics get channel divinity, potent spellcasting, better weapons and armor. All clerics get the option of wisdom to cantrip danage.

Druids get spells plus subclass features.

Bards get spells, class abilities and bard dice extra resources.

Wizards are boring, resource starved and underpowered by comparison espicially tier 1.