D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Neonchameleon]

Pretty much every spellcasting class has AoE to deal with fodder in any event.
. Its funny as people have gone from fireball was no good in 3.5 to an even worse version in 5E being better.

That's partly because power levels aren't assessed in isolation. In 3.5 if you wanted to take out a 20' radius worth of enemies you'd probably cast Stinking Cloud. No spell resistance applied (unlike Fireball) and the enemies would lose all their actions except a single basic move for as long as they were in the cloud plus 1d4+1 rounds after moving out so a single failed save would incapacitate someone for a minimum of three rounds. A single spell and it would be clean-up against most of the enemies. And spell save DCs outscaled saving throws.

In 5e Stinking Cloud (like almost all save-or-suck spells) is significantly worse; a save every round, constitution saves (which is a bad choice), and no "minimum of two rounds after leaving the cloud". And it's a 5e Concentration spell meaning it gets in the way of other spells.

The wizard is undoubtedly less powerful in 5e than 3.5. Fewer spells, worse spells, Concentration. Which is a good thing; 3.5 wizards were seriously overpowered. But fireball looks better by comparison because S-tier spells like Stinking Cloud have taken some much deserved savage nerfs.

Or using fireball as an example of wizards being overpowered. Its been nerfed over and over gets worse with each edition. Last time it was an S tier spell was probably BECMI, 2E being generous. 3.0 knocked it down more B+, 3.5 B, 4E C+ maybe currently C.

I can't agree with you. The opportunity cost of Fireball in 3.5 was not taking an S tier spell like 3.5 Stinking Cloud. Fireball was C tier back then. In 5e Stinking Cloud and many of the other Save or Suck spells are C tier. Meanwhile Fireball B tier because it's the best way the wizard has of doing something useful can't be matched by anyone except the 2024 Druid at that level (2024 Conjure Animals is absurd as they broke emanations).

 

[Zardnaar]

That's partly because power levels aren't assessed in isolation. In 3.5 if you wanted to take out a 20' radius worth of enemies you'd probably cast Stinking Cloud. No spell resistance applied (unlike Fireball) and the enemies would lose all their actions except a single basic move for as long as they were in the cloud plus 1d4+1 rounds after moving out so a single failed save would incapacitate someone for a minimum of three rounds. A single spell and it would be clean-up against most of the enemies. And spell save DCs outscaled saving throws.

In 5e Stinking Cloud (like almost all save-or-suck spells) is significantly worse; a save every round, constitution saves (which is a bad choice), and no "minimum of two rounds after leaving the cloud". And it's a 5e Concentration spell meaning it gets in the way of other spells.

The wizard is undoubtedly less powerful in 5e than 3.5. Fewer spells, worse spells, Concentration. Which is a good thing; 3.5 wizards were seriously overpowered. But fireball looks better by comparison because S-tier spells like Stinking Cloud have taken some much deserved savage nerfs.

I can't agree with you. The opportunity cost of Fireball in 3.5 was not taking an S tier spell like 3.5 Stinking Cloud. Fireball was C tier back then. In 5e Stinking Cloud and many of the other Save or Suck spells are C tier. Meanwhile Fireball B tier because it's the best way the wizard has of doing something useful can't be matched by anyone except the 2024 Druid at that level (2024 Conjure Animals is absurd as they broke emanations).

Except vs low CR mooks theyre failing saves 75-95% of the time just like 3E.

You gave hypnotic pattern, fear, slow trifecta. Druid emanating, cleric emanating, Bards can steal them and Warlocks it depends.

My party in dealing with are warlock, glanour bard, light cleric and sorcerer.

Any mook fight is irrelevant they have fireball but they have spirit guardians, radiance of the dawn, Hypnotic pattern, Synaptic static, fear, summons, hunger of hadar etc. And the alert feat.

Smaller group's have to dodge command, slow, Chromatic Orb, hold spells etc.

They have used fireball its been really good maybe twice 3 times max.

3.5 fireball was way better than 5E. Look at the amount of hp creatures had. Even better 3.0 less hp than 3.5. 10d6 often 15d6 via empower.

If 5E had a fireball that in effect dealt 30d6 or 45d6 damage which is an equivalent 3.5 fireball....

5E hp bliat is generally double or triple 3.5. Fireball wasn't ideal in 3.5. It was still better than 5E. A weak 3.5 fireball cast at 5th level is still the equivalent of 10d6 in 5E or more.

Dead is still a good debuff after all.

4HD ogre AD&D. Fireballs a save or die

3.5. Can still do it espicially empowered.

5E ogre better roll high it probably flunked both saves but survives 2 fireballs

Low CR critters are surviving 18d6 damage double taps in 5E (upcast fireball+synaptic static). After flunking both saves.

2 3.6 fireballs 20d6 flunked saves i woukd gave to go check the book but you're probably looking at CR8s dead depending on crotter. And those 10d6 ones are more likely 25-30d6 (one 5th level slot plus third level slot same as 5E). Assuming they can't empower it for free (its 3.5 it happens).

And fireball was "weak" in 3.5.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You gave hypnotic pattern, fear, slow trifecta. Druid emanating, cleric emanating, Bards can steal them and Warlocks it depends.

Yeah, 5.24 emanations are broken. And the three spells you listed are all wisdom saves that require Concentration.

Meanwhile in 3.5 Hypnotic Pattern was a second level spell. Fear took a significant nerf from 3.5 as you can make saves if you can just get out of LoS which is generally not that bad. And Slow took a significant nerf from 3.5 as in 3.5 you lost your Swift Action, lost any possibility of full attack actions, and could either move or make an action not move at half speed and make an action. Oh, and you could chain Slow targets rather than dropping an AoE. All of these took bigger nerfs than Fireball.

Any mook fight is irrelevant they have fireball but they have spirit guardians, radiance of the dawn, Hypnotic pattern, Synaptic static, fear, summons, hunger of hadar etc. And the alert feat.

Synaptic Static? You mean that spell that for mook clearing is just Fireball cast out of a fifth level slot? Hunger of Hadar is a more niche spell than Fireball (I mean I love it but it's area denial more than damage). And summons aren't really mook clearers.

3.5 fireball was way better than 5E. Look at the amount of hp creatures had. Even better 3.0 less hp than 3.5. 10d6 often 15d6 via empower.

Oh, I'm not disputing that a 5d6 fireball in 3.5 (i.e. minimum level) is about on a level with an 8d6 5e fireball and the 5e version doesn't then scale with caster level. But seriously? Empower? That metamagic that cost +2 spell levels? So you're comparing a third level spell to a fifth level spell unless you're further breaking 3.X.

If 5E had a fireball that in effect dealt 30d6 or 45d6 damage which is an equivalent 3.5 fireball....

LOL. No. That would be the equivalent to a fifth level spell cast by a high level caster in a game in which high level casters were broken. Fireball is a third level spell and it's considered a game changer when it is picked up at fifth level for good reason.

 

[TwoSix]

LOL. No. That would be the equivalent to a fifth level spell cast by a high level caster in a game in which high level casters were broken. Fireball is a third level spell and it's considered a game changer when it is picked up at fifth level for good reason.

Exactly. Fireball is at its best in 5e in the low-mid Tier 2 range, when encountering CR1-2s as fodder in fights is still pretty common, and fireball has a decent chance at one-shotting several of them, or at least putting them into "next hit drops".

The fact that it's non-concentration also means you can combine it with concentration spells like spirit guardians. Light cleric fireballs the enemy group, and then walks in with spirit guardians up to clean out stragglers has ended quite a few fights that I've seen.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In my last session, the players fought an NPC Archmage. They weren't pleased to find that not only did she have Magic Resistance, but was also resistant to spell damage! "How come she gets that?"

"Well, she's an Archmage."

"Funny, I don't see an option for that in the Wizard class."

But it really does sound like something a Wizard should be able to get.

Don't get me started on PC vs NPC abilities.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just a minor quibble. The Warlock was created in 3.5, in Complete Arcane.

I imagine that book didn't get as much exposure as the PH.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Exactly. Fireball is at its best in 5e in the low-mid Tier 2 range, when encountering CR1-2s as fodder in fights is still pretty common, and fireball has a decent chance at one-shotting several of them, or at least putting them into "next hit drops".

The fact that it's non-concentration also means you can combine it with concentration spells like spirit guardians. Light cleric fireballs the enemy group, and then walks in with spirit guardians up to clean out stragglers has ended quite a few fights that I've seen.

Exactly that. Comparing spells with concentration against spells without is quite a fallacy in 5e.

Usually it is not either or, but what to do in between concentration spells with your slot.
Especially when you are a sorcerer that does not lose concentration easily, you end up with a lot of spell slots at the end of the day, if all you do is casting concentrations spells.

Another fallacy is comparing action spells woth bonus action spells.

Bless for example has alwaways been overrated. It eats up concentration and an action. So it better turns a few misses into hits or helps keeping up a concentration. On average, bless turns every 8th miss/failure into a hit/success.
This has to make up spending an action doing nothing and doing no direct damage with your concentration slot.

Bad? No. Still a good spell. But it pays its dividents rather slow on average.

 

[Micah Sweet]

sure your character can get that, all they need to do is take a quick break from adventuring to study specialist magical theory for 15 years like the archmage did.

i get the 'man that's cool and overpowered, i want my character to do that' attitude for NPC goodies but i also understand those characters took different paths in life to get those abilities and in turn don't have a bunch of stuff that the players do have from their classes, some things come from taking the slow and boring path and that's not conductive to being an adventurer.

So long as either the PC or a commensurate NPC can conceivably acquire the same abilities, it's all good.

 

[Stalker0]

Sometimes. Sometimes not. Shield is not bad. Staying behind other characters helps.

yeah but the point of the discussion was to determine how often wizards are making what kinds of saves.

Shield is nice, shield still doesn't get you the AC that frontliners have, so they are still a better target for attacks. Simply put, I would still wager that wizards are getting hit (and making concentration saves) more often than they are making int and wisdom saves....given standard types of encounters.

 

[Stalker0]

Its funny as people have gone from fireball was no good in 3.5 to an even worse version in 5E being better.

Well to be fair, from levels 5,6,7 the 5e fireball is better than the the 3.5 version (3.5 doesn't get better until level 9)....and as you noted earlier we should be careful about including higher level builds in our discussion. But yeah the 5e fireball does more damage in general, and its save scales naturally (3e fireball DC did not change without some add ons).

Now 5e casters have fwer spells (though a lot more flexibility in how they use them). And 5e creatures have more hp. So yes I don't think fireball is great in 5e.

But I don't know if the 5e fireball is actually worse than 3e on paper, its just the hp boost that tended to make it less effective.