D&D 5E (2024) What should the 15th Class be?

[Remathilis]

Maybe I'm a bit thick here, but, isn't arcane gish an Artificer? I mean, they've got the spells, powers and extra attack. In what way isn't an artificer an arcane gish?

Artificer feels more like a Rogue/wizard hybrid. Or, or did. We'll see what the 24 version looks like when it finally is released.

 

[Remathilis]

Not really how it plays. It’s an expert in the same way that a ranger is an expert.

Ranger is a warrior/expert/primal caster.

 

[Remathilis]

The modern Ranger is OFFENSE + SKILLS

There is a missing grid-fill for Primal and Arcane OFFENSE + DEFENSE

Primal + arcane would be a witch

 

[Minigiant]

Pretty much the whole of the artificer is in the subclass, considering them without is disingenuous.

The point is the alchemist has crap offense and defense.

You aren't a Mage/Warrior class if you can choose a subclass and have no Warrior.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The point is the alchemist has crap offense and defense.

You aren't a Mage/Warrior class if you can choose a subclass and have no Warrior.

The alchemist is a crap subclass. As I said, most of the artificer is in the subclass, and all the other choices are far better than alchemist.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

As someone completely desperate for an arcane gish class....

The warlord should objectively be the next classes added. A support based martial class is the biggest hole missing in 5e, and nothing in game even comes close to how the 4e warlord used to play.

 

[Minigiant]

The alchemist is a crap subclass. As I said, most of the artificer is in the subclass, and all the other choices are far better than alchemist.

Artillerist ist a warrior as well.

The fantasy nor the mechanics of 5e artificer is of a weapon user. That's why it fails to fill the Gish desire.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Then there is essentially nothing for us to discuss. I completely disagree with this philosophy, and anything I say on the subject will be predicated on the idea that only-exactly four classes is not even an idea on the table.

It’s not a case of a particular number of classes. It’s the case that more mechanics makes the game objectively worse.

Here is a case in point: the pathfinder kineticist is a pretty exact fit for the “spellless psion” you are so keen on. It has magical abilities that are not spells, and if it uses more powerful abilities its maximum hit points are reduced. So far, so novel. But the problems start to become apparent when you see them in play, and the Pathfinder CRPGs are a good place to see that. Some of the issues:

• It’s powers are so novel that it needs its own set of feats, because most of the standard feats do little to enhance its abilities;
• For the same reason it needs its own magic items because lots of standard items (such as weapons) are useless for it;
• It’s powers have no interaction with other class abilities, making all multi-class options uniformly terrible, and hence the class has very little variety in unconventional build options;
• No one knows what the class’s role in the party is. No one ever says “we need a kineticist!” So they stay on the bench.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That's why it fails to fill the Gish desire.

Why can’t your “gish” use weapons? I really don’t understand this, or why rangers and paladins unacountably fail to qualify. What fantasy hero is it supposed to emulate? The Witcher? Ranger works fine. Elric? The hexblade warlock was based on him, but fighter/MU with a magic weapon is a better fit, and how he was statted in 1st edition deities and demigods. We have a “Jedi knight” fighter subclass that works fine.

 

[Remathilis]

The alchemist is a crap subclass. As I said, most of the artificer is in the subclass, and all the other choices are far better than alchemist.

It’s not a case of a particular number of classes. It’s the case that more mechanics makes the game objectively worse.

Here is a case in point: the pathfinder kineticist is a pretty exact fit for the “spellless psion” you are so keen on. It has magical abilities that are not spells, and if it uses more powerful abilities its maximum hit points are reduced. So far, so novel. But the problems start to become apparent when you see them in play, and the Pathfinder CRPGs are a good place to see that. Some of the issues:

• It’s powers are so novel that it needs its own set of feats, because most of the standard feats do little to enhance its abilities;
• For the same reason it needs its own magic items because lots of standard items (such as weapons) are useless for it;
• It’s powers have no interaction with other class abilities, making all multi-class options uniformly terrible, and hence the class has very little variety in unconventional build options;
• No one knows what the class’s role in the party is. No one ever says “we need a kineticist!” So they stay on the bench.

This was kinda a problem with the 3.5 psion as well. The issue was since psionics overall were considered an add-on and not part of the base game, the DM had to consciously add them for the psionic character and it seemed to stand out. Enemy starts using psionics? This fight is for Bob. Found a psionic item? Here you go Bob. Running a module? Better swap in or add some psionic monsters or items for Bob. The problem is even more pronounced the more additional systems you add on: running a game with psionics, magic, incarnum and martial maneuvers would mean everyone is their own little island.