ToV Some questions regarding the Game Master's Guide

[Greg K]

While I liked the split of Lineages and heritages and several of the heritages, there were some mechanical changes and flavor issues in the Player's Guide that did not make me want to switch to Tov (as was the same with D&D 2024). The Game Master's Guide, in contrast, looks like it could have enough content of interest to me to purchase and steal/adapt to 2014. However, I have a few content questions regarding the GMG that I hope others here can answer as Kobold Press does not appear to have a list of variant rules found in the book .

Chapter 7: Adventuring Options
1. Common House Rules: What common house rules are covered?
2. Diseases Expanded and Poison Expanded? What topics are covered in these sections? Are there onset times and examples of real world diseases and poisons covered in game terms (if not in the Player' Guide)? Is it just fantasy diseases and poisons created by the author(s).

Chapter 8: Homebrewer's Toolbox
1. Creating Character Options: What examples are provided?
2. Does this section include any variant rules for lineages, classes, subclasses, or class spell lists?

Other Questions
1. Are there any other variant rules in the book not found in chapters 7 and or 8?
2. What rules/mechanical changes (if any) found in the ToV Game Master's Guide do you think are better handled than in the 2014 DMG and various official supplements (e.g. Xanathar's, Tasha's) and/or the 2024 DMG

I know I may have asked a lot so thank you upfront for any help.

 

[prabe]

While I liked the split of Lineages and heritages and several of the heritages, there were some mechanical changes and flavor issues in the Player's Guide that did not make me want to switch to Tov (as was the same with D&D 2024). The Game Master's Guide, in contrast, looks like it could have enough content of interest to me to purchase and steal/adapt to 2014. However, I have a few content questions regarding the GMG that I hope others here can answer as Kobold Press does not appear to have a list of variant rules found in the book .

I actually moved to ToV (though the game I'm running in 2014 stayed there, because I didn't wanna change things out from under the players. Just letting you know some of where I'm coming from on this ...

Chapter 7: Adventuring Options
1. Common House Rules: What common house rules are covered?

Mostly it's stuff like firearms, Dread/Horror (what a lot of older games would have called Madness) and some extra Downtime stuff. It's also where some Artifacts are, as well as rules for sentient items. Random treasure stuff lives here, as does some advice on rewarding players/characters (luck as well as treasure). Then vehicles and siege weapons, then stuff like chases, monster harvesting, variant initiative systems, and skill challenges.

2. Diseases Expanded and Poison Expanded? What topics are covered in these sections? Are there onset times and examples of real world diseases and poisons covered in game terms (if not in the Player' Guide)? Is it just fantasy diseases and poisons created by the author(s).

The diseases and poisons in the GMG are all fantasy diseases and poisons.

Chapter 8: Homebrewer's Toolbox
1. Creating Character Options: What examples are provided?
2. Does this section include any variant rules for lineages, classes, subclasses, or class spell lists?

1. The section contains entirely guidance, not examples. If you want those, you'll need to look in the various ToV sources. I was able to convert the stuff I was allowing in my 5e games with little trouble (a lot of time, but little trouble).
2. I don't know what you mean by variant rules for those things. The last (class spell lists) especially isn't a thing in ToV.

Other Questions
1. Are there any other variant rules in the book not found in chapters 7 and or 8?

Chapter 4 (Advanced Combat) is laden with new/variant rules, and they're scattered through Chapters 5 (Advanced Exploration) and 6 (Advanced Social) as well.

2. What rules/mechanical changes (if any) found in the ToV Game Master's Guide do you think are better handled than in the 2014 DMG and various official supplements (e.g. Xanathar's, Tasha's) and/or the 2024 DMG

I like the GMG better than either of WotC's DMGs, but it's really less a core book. My choice to go with ToV was based on it seeming to me like a better revision of a game I liked (but a game I did think needed some revision).

 

[Greg K]

I actually moved to ToV (though the game I'm running in 2014 stayed there, because I didn't wanna change things out from under the players. Just letting you know some of where I'm coming from on this ...

Prabe, First let me thank you for the response

Mostly it's stuff like firearms, Dread/Horror (what a lot of older games would have called Madness) and some extra Downtime stuff. It's also where some Artifacts are, as well as rules for sentient items. Random treasure stuff lives here, as does some advice on rewarding players/characters (luck as well as treasure). Then vehicles and siege weapons, then stuff like chases, monster harvesting, variant initiative systems, and skill challenges.

Cool.

1. The section contains entirely guidance, not examples. If you want those, you'll need to look in the various ToV sources. I was able to convert the stuff I was allowing in my 5e games with little trouble (a lot of time, but little trouble).

ok, I will try to look at other sources on Drivethrurpg and the Kobold Press website to see what is available.

2. I don't know what you mean by variant rules for those things. The last (class spell lists) especially isn't a thing in ToV.

What I had in mind for variants:

1. Lineages: a variant for using 2014 D&D racial ability modifiers (or, maybe, capping strength for smaller Lineages)
2. Heritages: an alternative ability for those that gain a spell after first level.
3. Classes
   1. variants that offer classes a choice at 1st level similar to
      1. TOV's Cleric's Manifestation of Faith;
      2. 3.5 D&D Unearthed Arcana class variants such as Barbarian Hunter, Divine and Savage (Primal) Bards, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Rogue that modify some class features and, if appropriate, the spell list used;
      3. 3.5 D&D Complete Champion's Spell-less Paladin (Holy Warrior variant) and Spell-less Ranger (Champion of the WIld variant) and Kobold Press's Spell-less Ranger class for Pathfinder 1e
   2. a variant for 2014 class level subclass aquisition (or even having all classes getting subclasses at 1st level) and modifying a subclass's feature acquisition accordingly;
   3. with regards to spell lists, I was referring to a variant/guidance for switching a class's spell list source or even bringing back individual class spell lists rather than TOVs spell list by source.

Chapter 4 (Advanced Combat) is laden with new/variant rules, and they're scattered through Chapters 5 (Advanced Exploration) and 6 (Advanced Social) as well.

These sound like they can be worth checking out. I really wish Kobold Press would do a 3e Unearthed Arcana checklist of all variant/optional rules.

I like the GMG better than either of WotC's DMGs, but it's really less a core book. My choice to go with ToV was based on it seeming to me like a better revision of a game I liked (but a game I did think needed some revision).

Yeah, I got the feeling that the GMG is less a core book than the 2014 DMG and is more useful for experienced GMs than the 2024 DMG.
Thanks again!

 

[prabe]

What I had in mind for variants:

1. Lineages: a variant for using 2014 D&D racial ability modifiers (or, maybe, capping strength for smaller Lineages)
2. Heritages: an alternative ability for those that gain a spell after first level.
3. Classes
   1. variants that offer classes a choice at 1st level similar to
      1. TOV's Cleric's Manifestation of Faith;
      2. 3.5 D&D Unearthed Arcana class variants such as Barbarian Hunter, Divine and Savage (Primal) Bards, Urban Ranger, Wilderness Rogue that modify some class features and, if appropriate, the spell list used;
      3. 3.5 D&D Complete Champion's Spell-less Paladin (Holy Warrior variant) and Spell-less Ranger (Champion of the WIld variant) and Kobold Press's Spell-less Ranger class for Pathfinder 1e
   2. a variant for 2014 class level subclass aquisition (or even having all classes getting subclasses at 1st level) and modifying a subclass's feature acquisition accordingly;
   3. with regards to spell lists, I was referring to a variant/guidance for switching a class's spell list source or even bringing back individual class spell lists rather than TOVs spell list by source.

KP have published some lineages that gain spells, but I haven't been allowing those (I have a pretty restrictive whitelist). I've adapted some of those features into various lineages (and I think there are some in their sources--especially the Campaign Starter books that came out after the ToV Player's Guide. I had no problem rewriting and adapting stuff to suit my preferences and needs. I haven't seen anything like most of the variants you specifically mention--though your 2 seems as though it'd be relatively straightforward to adapt.

There might be new alternate/variant approaches in the Player's Guide 2, which I think should be out in a few months.

 

[Greg K]

KP have published some lineages that gain spells, but I haven't been allowing those (I have a pretty restrictive whitelist).
Yeah, for both 3e and 5e I have also have a restrictive white list. I didn't like D&D 5.24 having races that receive additional spells after level 1 (and, especially, all members receiving the same exact spells after level 1). So, I have similar issues with heritages granting spells after first level.

I've adapted some of those features into various lineages (and I think there are some in their sources--especially the Campaign Starter books that came out after the ToV Player's Guide. I had no problem rewriting and adapting stuff to suit my preferences and needs. I haven't seen anything like most of the variants you specifically mention--though your 2 seems as though it'd be relatively straightforward to adapt.

I forgot two questions in my previous post.
1. Does the Game Master Guide have an option for skill points?
2. Does it have an option for reducing a cleric's hit die to d6 and removing armor proficiencies in exchange for other abilities? The D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana had the Cloistered Cleric Variant and the 5e DMG (p287) had a variant for reducing a cleric's weapon proficiency to the quarterstaff and removing the armor proficiencies in exchange for the Monk's Unarmored Defense feature (calling it "Divine Blessing") to reflect cleric's of a certain deity (personally, I would give a little something extra for reduction from simple weapons to the quarterstaff) .

There might be new alternate/variant approaches in the Player's Guide 2, which I think should be out in a few months.

 

[prabe]

I forgot two questions in my previous post.
1. Does the Game Master Guide have an option for skill points?
2. Does it have an option for reducing a cleric's hit die to d6 and removing armor proficiencies in exchange for other abilities? The D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana had the Cloistered Cleric Variant and the 5e DMG (p287) had a variant for reducing a cleric's weapon proficiency to the quarterstaff and removing the armor proficiencies in exchange for the Monk's Unarmored Defense feature (calling it "Divine Blessing") to reflect cleric's of a certain deity (personally, I would give a little something extra for reduction from simple weapons to the quarterstaff) .

I have not seen anything like either of those two things in anything KP have published for ToV. The latter, you're functionally making a new core class, the guidance for that might be useful, but it's very general guidance.

 

[Greg K]

The latter, you're functionally making a new core class, the guidance for that might be useful, but it's very general guidance.

I don't know if it is necessarily making a new core class. It could be an additional Cleric's Manifestation of Faith at 1st level.

 

[prabe]

I don't know if it is necessarily making a new core class. It could be an additional Cleric's Manifestation of Faith at 1st level.

Plausibly, but you're actively giving up what are arguably more like core features--though really, I've never seen a cleric in play as anything other than a caster straddling support and offense. (Though the tweak for the Armor of Shadows warlock invocation in ToV is probably what I'd grab for this, or maybe the tweak to Barbarian Unarmored Defense--they're both less MAD in ToV).

 

[fettpett]

Plausibly, but you're actively giving up what are arguably more like core features--though really, I've never seen a cleric in play as anything other than a caster straddling support and offense. (Though the tweak for the Armor of Shadows warlock invocation in ToV is probably what I'd grab for this, or maybe the tweak to Barbarian Unarmored Defense--they're both less MAD in ToV).

In the Labyrinth World Book there is the Celestial Warlock and PG 2 is bringing the Sacred Sorcerer which would effectively give you what you're looking for with the Cloistered Cleric feel.

 

[fettpett]

I don't know if it is necessarily making a new core class. It could be an additional Cleric's Manifestation of Faith at 1st level.L

There isn't anything specific for adjusting cleric but the split at level one where Manifestation of Faith gives you more spells, no heavy armor or martial weapons, and Manifestation of Might gives you those things. Brigandine armor is also a thing in ToV which is 13+DEX but noisy armor (I personally make a point of taking this over any other light armor).

The GMG is arguably the best GM/DM book for 5e out there, while there aren't as many "alternatives rules" there is a TON for helping both advanced and new GM's with a whole host of things from world building to campaign building to homebrewing monsters, player options and more.

While you can do what you'd like with the adding ability modifier restriction to lineages like smallfolk, it's been decoupled entirely from lineages and is baked into the standard array and point buy, with it taking the Tasha's approach with dice rolling.

Diseases and poisons are decent with most the fantasy ones as examples (including lycanthropy), they also add firearms and rule surrounding black power which are great. Also rules for injuries, bloodied, doom and various combat outcome rules which is helpful. Flanking isn't in it, but I generally house rule that anyway.


The homebrewing section is great, but I do wish there was more than a couple of sentences for subclass design, having to look at the conversion guide and other subclasses is a bit annoying. I'm kinda hoping they come out with more concrete guidance for working on each subclass level.