D&D (2024) Kobold Press posts 2024 DMG Hit Piece

[Mistwell]

I don't love the article that KP put out, but they've since apologized

I didn't see an apology. I saw a "we listened to our fans" and "disappointed" but no "We apologize." Maybe I missed it in their post? Looked like a non-apology apology where they don't even state what they think they did wrong and just state they should do better while claiming they had good intent. Which let's be clear: the author said it didn't represent fairly what they wrote and asked for their name to be removed due to how butchered the "review" was by editing. There isn't good evidence their intent was pure in how the company appears to have intentionally edited it that way.

And before someone says it yes I saw their response to all of this about wanting to uplift the positive and all that. I am saying I didn't see them say they apologize. And yeah, I am treating this exactly like I'd treat WOTC if they issued this kind of backtrack after backlash. I'd expect an actual apology in the supposed apology.

 

[mamba]

And yeah, I am treating this exactly like I'd treat WOTC if they issued this kind of backtrack after backlash. I'd expect an actual apology in the supposed apology.

have you gotten one for most of the things WotC did that were topics here over the last 24 or so months? I did not see anything at all from them about the Pinkertons for example.

 

[PHATsakk43]

Well, things are getting a bit testy.

First, your feelings on a subject are valid but that doesn’t mean that your opinion is. You’re entitled to your opinion, but no one else should feel that it matters.

Secondly, it’s somewhat irrelevant that WotC has been accused of bad behavior regarding another company putting a WotC product on blast and then saying their product is superior.

While it’s a legitimate business practice to state that your competitor has an inferior product, in this case Kobold Press isn’t really so much a competitor as a partner.

Finally, in defense of WotC—something I am surprised to ever write—this sort of approach by Kobold Press would definitely be a driver for revoking the OGL if I were in the board at WotC.

Basically, a partner whose business model rides upon the OGL is stating that our new core product is inferior to what they are producing. Not only that, but the implication is that customers would be better off buying the competitor product.

 

[Clint_L]

Finally, in defense of WotC—something I am surprised to ever write—this sort of approach by Kobold Press would definitely be a driver for revoking the OGL if I were in the board at WotC.

Basically, a partner whose business model rides upon the OGL is stating that our new core product is inferior to what they are producing. Not only that, but the implication is that customers would be better off buying the competitor product.

Note that 5e is now in the Creative Commons so that can't happen, but I take your point. To me, it reads oddly when KP sort of claims that their's is the superior 5e product without really acknowledging who made 5e. They've done it several times. It's not necessarily wrong, but feels, to me, kind of rude I guess.

 

[Imaro]

Yeah I would think that if your product is firmly in the camp for experienced DM's and you acknowledge the 5e DMG is targeted at newer DM's a better approach might have been to show how GMG could enhance and expand the core DMG.

Honestly the only thing I took away from the original post was... Hey look we got more ready made examples than the DMG... which, for me having DM'd for years, really wasn't the draw i think KP thought it would be. Give me new systems and expansions not padding in the form of excessive examples of the same old stuff we've gotten for years. Your strength is that the basics are covered in the corebooks so use that advantage.

.

 

[mamba]

First, your feelings on a subject are valid but that doesn’t mean that your opinion is. You’re entitled to your opinion, but no one else should feel that it matters.

you are certainly free to dismiss it, just like I might dismiss yours or @Mistwell’s

Secondly, it’s somewhat irrelevant that WotC has been accused of bad behavior

that WotC was accused may be irrelevant, but when someone who always defended WotC about everything now cannot be satisfied with a ‘we will do better’ because it was not apologetic enough for them, then I might comment on that

Finally, in defense of WotC—something I am surprised to ever write—this sort of approach by Kobold Press would definitely be a driver for revoking the OGL if I were in the board at WotC.

yeah, good thing you are not then, because that would be petty, stupid (in that we have the CC now at a minimum, even if you ignore the backlash), and most likely illegal

But sure, do more harm to yourself than the Kobold post ever would have and drive part of your audience towards them, that will show them

 

[Mistwell]

have you gotten one for most of the things WotC did that were topics here over the last 24 or so months? I did not see anything at all from them about the Pinkertons for example.

Pinkertons no (I think because it's covered by a legal case, regardless not about TTRPGs) but from the OGL issue yes.

 

[Mistwell]

you are certainly free to dismiss it, just like I might dismiss yours or @Mistwell’s


that WotC was accused may be irrelevant, but when someone who always defended WotC about everything now cannot be satisfied with a ‘we will do better’ because it was not apologetic enough for them, then I might comment on that

I have not always defended WOTC about everything. I've been critical for sure (I've been here since 3e came out for goodness sake, I've been critical about things that happened every edition). I was critical of the initial OGL issue before they put it in the Creative Commons for example and APOLOGIZED. Which is why I said I treat WOTC the same. If WOTC had issued this kind of non-apology apology over somethin you think they clearly did wrong, how would you react?

 

[mamba]

I have not always defended WOTC about everything. I've been critical for sure (I've been here since 3e came out for goodness sake

I came here way later than that, was referring to what happened since then, let’s say starting with the OGL as the first major issue

I was critical of the initial OGL issue before they put it in the Creative Commons for example and APOLOGIZED.

cool, maybe I am confusing you or misremembering, I apologize

 

[Vaalingrade]

Finally, in defense of WotC—something I am surprised to ever write—this sort of approach by Kobold Press would definitely be a driver for revoking the OGL if I were in the board at WotC.

Outright stating your business took an action to harm the competition literally out of spite will certainly go over well in court.