D&D General A DMG for all of us

[TiQuinn]

The very next option listed is the opposite rule, saying you always play obeying the speed limit. Again, these are options. Not hard and fast rules. Couched in a discussion of everything that happens at the table should be fun for everyone. Just because it isn't how you have fun with the game doesn't mean it isn't a valid way for another group to have fun, and it is different than the speed limit because it only impacts the table playing.

What is fair is having agreed on rules. Whether those rules include fudging dice rolls is entirely a table preference.

That’s fine. I’m just saying there’s an ick factor for me. I would’ve cut it from the book.

 

[Loren the GM]

Sure, it’s always been happening. How often do you see the rules of a game endorse it?

The 2014 DMG for a start:

Dice Rolling​

Establish expectations about rolling dice. Rolling in full view of everyone is a good starting point. If you see a player rolling and scooping the dice up before anyone else can see, encourage that player to be less secretive.

When a die falls on the floor, do you count it or reroll it? When it lands cocked against a book, do you pull the book away and see where it lands, or reroll it?

What about you, the DM? Do you make your rolls in the open or hide them behind a DM screen? Consider the following:

• If you roll dice where the players can see, they know you’re playing impartially and not fudging rolls.
• Rolling behind a screen keeps the players guessing about the strength of their opposition. When a monster hits all the time, is it of a much higher level than the characters, or are you rolling high numbers?
• Rolling behind a screen lets you fudge the results if you want to. If two critical hits in a row would kill a character, you could change the second critical hit into a normal hit, or even a miss. Don’t distort die rolls too often, though, and don’t let on that you’re doing it. Otherwise, your players might think they don’t face any real risks — or worse, that you’re playing favorites.
• A roll behind a screen can help preserve mystery. For example, if a player thinks there might be someone invisible nearby and makes a Wisdom (Perception) check, consider rolling a die behind the screen even if no one is there, making the player think someone is, indeed, hiding. Try not to overuse this trick.
• You might choose to make a roll for a player because you don’t want the player to know how good the check total is. For example, if a player suspects a baroness might be charmed and wants to make a Wisdom (Insight) check, you could make the roll in secret for the player. If the player rolled and got a high number but didn’t sense anything amiss, the player would be confident that the baroness wasn’t charmed. With a low roll, a negative answer wouldn’t mean much. A hidden roll allows uncertainty.

Edit to add: Also 3.5:

DM Cheating and Player Perceptions​

Terrible things can happen in the game because the dice just go awry. Everything might be going fine, when suddenly the players have a run of bad luck. A round later, half the party’s down for the count and the other half almost certainly can’t take on the foes that remain. If everyone dies, the campaign might very well end then and there, and that’s bad for every-one. Do you stand by and watch them get slaughtered, or do you “cheat” and have the foes run off, or fudge the die rolls so that the PCs still miraculously win in the end? There are really two issues at hand.

Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes. As such, it’s certainly within your rights to sway things one way or another to keep people happy or keep things running smoothly. It’s no fun losing a long-term character who gets run over by a cart. A good rule of thumb is that a character shouldn’t die in a trivial way because of some fluke of the dice unless he or she was doing something really stupid at the time.However, you might not think it’s right or even fun unless you obey the same rules the players do. Sometimes the PCs get lucky and kill an NPC you had planned to have around for a long time.By the same token, sometimes things go against the PCs, and disaster may befall them. Both the DM and the players take the bad with the good. That’s a perfectly acceptable way to play, and if there’s a default method of DMing, that’s it.Just as important an issue, however, is whether the players realize that you bend the rules.

 

[gorice]

The game itself. It cedes power to the DM as facilitator of the game. The DM has control over a lot of the levers of the game. Ideally, the DM uses this power for Good and to make the game more fun. But some don't. Fudging dice, like altering an adventure on the fly, should be done for the betterment of the game. Not everyone will use it responsibility, but if the goal was complete neutrality, we'd be playing HeroQuest instead.

Huh? Don't players also have an interest in having fun? Don't they have opinions about what is desirable? Don't they have any desire for agency, challenge, or creative input?

I think the problem here is that you see 'the fun' as a thing that the DM delivers to the players, like giving a sermon. I'm saying that the game is supposed to be a conversation, and that everyone has things they want to say. The rules of the game structure that conversation, and give creative inputs and constraints.

As a player, I've agreed to use the rules to have this conversation, not to have the DM get on a soapbox and start browbeating me.

 

[Umbran]

Sure, it’s always been happening. How often do you see the rules of a game endorse it?

Not relevant, as RPGs are qualitatively different from other games.

You don't want dice fudging at your table? Then don't do it at your table. Your preferences are for your table, not for everyone else. Your game preferences should not limit what other people are allowed to talk about.

 

[TiQuinn]

The 2014 DMG for a start:



Edit to add: Also 3.5:

Thx Loren. It all misses my point but thanks all the same.

 

[TiQuinn]

Not relevant, as RPGs are qualitatively different from other games.

You don't want dice fudging at your table? Then don't do it at your table. Your preferences are for your table, not for everyone else. Your game preferences should not limit what other people are allowed to talk about.

Dude, chill. I’m not dictating to anyone.

 

[payn]

Dude, chill. I’m not dictating to anyone.

That’s not how it sounds. It’s like folks who play a certain way need to be quiet about it and make a secret handshake.

 

[TwoSix]

Rolling behind a screen lets you fudge the results if you want to. If two critical hits in a row would kill a character, you could change the second critical hit into a normal hit, or even a miss. Don’t distort die rolls too often, though, and don’t let on that you’re doing it. Otherwise, your players might think they don’t face any real risks — or worse, that you’re playing favorites.

Yes, 2014 DMG, I wouldn't want the players to not think they're facing real risks when I change the dice rolls to negate the risks.

 

[TiQuinn]

That’s not how it sounds. It’s like folks who play a certain way need to be quiet about it and make a secret handshake.

Look, I’m just registering an opinion that for me it undercuts the game itself to do that. Not that DMs don’t do it anyways. Not that if I were to get a goofy result on a treasure table or random encounter table to ignore it. (Actually I think there’s a better way to handle that). Just that, philosophically, the game shouldn’t undermine its own rules. If the game is swingy, they should work to present rules that make it less swingy - not outright ignore the rules.

None of this is a judgement on how any player or DM conducts their game. It’s purely a criticism on the way the rules present it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, 2014 DMG, I wouldn't want the players to not think they're facing real risks when I change the dice rolls to negate the risks.

It wasn't good advice back in 2014 either, IMO. No one ever said any DMG was perfect.