D&D 5E (2014) How To Make High Level 5E Work.For You +

[EzekielRaiden]

Fair enough. I am just having trouble imagining a concrete example of something that might occur in play. But, again, the overall point is good.

Well, let's look through the list of 3rd level Wizard spells.

clairvoyance -- who needs Perception or various means of trickery to listen to conversations when you can just make an invisible sensor that can hear (or see, but not both) anything near a chosen spot?
fear (or possibly enemies abound) -- functionally an Intimidate check with few to none of the downsides
feign death -- literally undetectable pretend-dead status ("the target appears dead to all outward inspection and to spells used to determine the target's status")
fly (or perhaps gaseous form) -- I don't think I need to go over the massive ways that this completely outshines any Athletics/Acrobatics stuff a Fighter could do
tiny hut -- Literally has a thread on here right now asking about folks' exposure to it and whether it's a problem for them (the author of that thread was skeptical, but still--that the question even needs to be asked indicates the potential is there)
phantom steed -- who needs Animal Handling? Literally just summon a supernaturally awesome horse-illusion, no concentration
sending -- perfect (for on-same-plane), instant, unblockable communication with return message, extremely useful tool that obviates issues like "how do we let our captive ally know what our plan is?"
speak with dead -- not as reliable as it could be, but still: why bother mucking about with holding back, when you can just kill your opponents and squeeze info from their corpse instead?
tiny servant -- Animated objects are amazing infiltrators, distractions, or helpers in many ways, obviating the need for stealth or sleight of hand in many situations
tongues -- eliminating any benefit from characters studying languages since 1st edition D&D
water breathing -- no need to bother with swimming if you can just trudge through the water normally, obviating various benefits of Athletics

That's just one spell level for one class. And 3rd level spell slots are cheap at high level. You're not using those for damage anymore, unless you're really strapped for stuff to do. Sure, no single Wizard can cast all of these spells unless they've spent a ton of time buying and scribing scrolls. But the point stands. There are plenty of ways for Wizard spells, even low-level ones, to turn a complex and effortful non-caster's plan into "oh, well let me just solve that for you right away", or to change a built-up effort by the player (such as intentionally acquiring lots of languages) into "well I mean I could've just cast a spell..." or the like.

For anyone who wants high-level 5.0 to work well, you need to keep extremely careful attention on both how many spells your spellcasters can deploy in a day, and what specific spells they have access to. Tailoring challenges so that your martial players feel like their choices have been smart and rewarding, without having "oh, I have a spell for that" happen half the time or more, is a serious concern. I don't have a good answer other than shouldering that burden yourself.

 

[Reynard]

Well, let's look through the list of 3rd level Wizard spells.

clairvoyance -- who needs Perception or various means of trickery to listen to conversations when you can just make an invisible sensor that can hear (or see, but not both) anything near a chosen spot?
fear (or possibly enemies abound) -- functionally an Intimidate check with few to none of the downsides
feign death -- literally undetectable pretend-dead status ("the target appears dead to all outward inspection and to spells used to determine the target's status")
fly (or perhaps gaseous form) -- I don't think I need to go over the massive ways that this completely outshines any Athletics/Acrobatics stuff a Fighter could do
tiny hut -- Literally has a thread on here right now asking about folks' exposure to it and whether it's a problem for them (the author of that thread was skeptical, but still--that the question even needs to be asked indicates the potential is there)
phantom steed -- who needs Animal Handling? Literally just summon a supernaturally awesome horse-illusion, no concentration
sending -- perfect (for on-same-plane), instant, unblockable communication with return message, extremely useful tool that obviates issues like "how do we let our captive ally know what our plan is?"
speak with dead -- not as reliable as it could be, but still: why bother mucking about with holding back, when you can just kill your opponents and squeeze info from their corpse instead?
tiny servant -- Animated objects are amazing infiltrators, distractions, or helpers in many ways, obviating the need for stealth or sleight of hand in many situations
tongues -- eliminating any benefit from characters studying languages since 1st edition D&D
water breathing -- no need to bother with swimming if you can just trudge through the water normally, obviating various benefits of Athletics

That's just one spell level for one class. And 3rd level spell slots are cheap at high level. You're not using those for damage anymore, unless you're really strapped for stuff to do. Sure, no single Wizard can cast all of these spells unless they've spent a ton of time buying and scribing scrolls. But the point stands. There are plenty of ways for Wizard spells, even low-level ones, to turn a complex and effortful non-caster's plan into "oh, well let me just solve that for you right away", or to change a built-up effort by the player (such as intentionally acquiring lots of languages) into "well I mean I could've just cast a spell..." or the like.

For anyone who wants high-level 5.0 to work well, you need to keep extremely careful attention on both how many spells your spellcasters can deploy in a day, and what specific spells they have access to. Tailoring challenges so that your martial players feel like their choices have been smart and rewarding, without having "oh, I have a spell for that" happen half the time or more, is a serious concern. I don't have a good answer other than shouldering that burden yourself.

I don't want this to turn into THAT debate again. I was not asking about or responding to the general idea that casters can outshine non-casters. I was responding to the specific idea of casters outshining others in their personal stories (the example given was the blacksmith versus fabricate). I am still not convinced that a caster PC can ruin a non-caster's PCs personal narrative arc.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't want this to turn into THAT debate again. I was not asking about or responding to the general idea that casters can outshine non-casters. I was responding to the specific idea of casters outshining others in their personal stories (the example given was the blacksmith versus fabricate). I am still not convinced that a caster PC can ruin a non-caster's PCs personal narrative arc.

Ruining an entire arc is unlikely.

The example given was "awesome, my backstory really specifically matters for this scene! This is a great payoff for months/years of development!" -> "...oh. The spellcaster solved the problem in six seconds with a single spell."

That's not ruining an entire arc. But it is a moment of spellcasters being innate spotlight hogs in a game allegedly balanced around guaranteeing different players focused spotlight at different times.

 

[Reynard]

Ruining an entire arc is unlikely.

The example given was "awesome, my backstory really specifically matters for this scene! This is a great payoff for months/years of development!" -> "...oh. The spellcaster solved the problem in six seconds with a single spell."

That's not ruining an entire arc. But it is a moment of spellcasters being innate spotlight hogs in a game allegedly balanced around guaranteeing different players focused spotlight at different times.

That's just bad GMing, setting up what is supposed to be an important scene for character A but not protecting their role or agency in it.

 

[dave2008]

Not that you have to stay on topic in a thread, but...what does this conversation have to do with making high level play work?

PS - When I get some time I will try to give my thoughts as I have had a good deal of success in high level 5e play. At least with our homebrew version of 5e!

Ruining an entire arc is unlikely.

The example given was "awesome, my backstory really specifically matters for this scene! This is a great payoff for months/years of development!" -> "...oh. The spellcaster solved the problem in six seconds with a single spell."

That's not ruining an entire arc. But it is a moment of spellcasters being innate spotlight hogs in a game allegedly balanced around guaranteeing different players focused spotlight at different times.

That's just bad GMing, setting up what is supposed to be an important scene for character A but not protecting their role or agency in it.

 

[Reynard]

In my con games, given time constraints, I usually design the encounters assuming a near or complete nova from the party. This means I use waves of enemies and build a double deadly encounter with a phased or multi-part boss.

My current regular campaign does not really have that constraint. they aren't "high level" yet, but will be soon (because I am pushing through the lower and mid levels intentionally quickly) and I am wondering what folks do to pace high level adventures where you want at least some attrition rather than assumed nova fights.

 

[dave2008]

OK, I am to busy to give a long detailed response, but will chime in as time allows with individual thoughts and experiences.

Suggestion #1: Have an AD&D mindset (a).
What I mean by this is AD&D made epic encounters work by "nerfing" casters. High level monsters had magic resistance* that could complete shut down direct magical effects. This forced casters to work more strategically. They could still be effective, but rarely, IME, complete change the encounter themselves. Additionally, encounters often had effects the nullified or reduced the effectiveness of magic. You can do this in 5e too.

I realize this might not be a popular option, but I have seen it work in both AD&D and 5e. Though I don't think this should be an every encounter solution, but a sometimes solution.

*In AD&D magic resistance was more akin to 5e's magic immunity. Spells would simply fail to have any effect on the monster.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's just bad GMing, setting up what is supposed to be an important scene for character A but not protecting their role or agency in it.

Whereas I see it as a GM getting tripped up by the ways that D&D characters can invalidate one another's abilities, and trying to keep in mind all of the potential ways that could happen is a pretty big ask.

 

[dave2008]

Suggestion #2: Brutal damage
The goal with epic encounters is not to always threaten the PCs, but to make them feel threaten. What I have made work is to have an effect or monster that does massive one attack damage. This can have little true threat (PCs are resilient), nut an effect that causes 100+ damage will make the PCs pay attention. The one attack issue is important. I find this has a much more visceral impact on players than five hits for 20-25 damage.

Look at the tables below from the DMG. Use those epic level damages and your PCs will take notice!

 

[Mort]

*In AD&D magic resistance was more akin to 5e's magic immunity. Spells would simply fail to have any effect on the monster.

Yeah, it was much more than now. When magic resistance kicked in, the baddie could literally just walk through a wall of Force, for example.

Brought up earlier in this thread. 5.24 introduced greater magic resistance, for atb list the Rakshasa - monster auto makes all saves versus magic/magical effects AND any spell attacks targeted on it AUTOMATICALLY miss.

As long as not overused, that's a nice/nasty surprise against a high level caster. But not fatal, most casters can then shift to support buffing.