D&D 5E (2024) A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes

[Clint_L]

I agree that both of those abilties were out of line. Also, I think the "nerf" to stunning strike was the best thing that happened to monks. Taking away their ability to spam it allowed designers to give them a lot of alternatives, so the class is no longer a one trick pony. Plus, the updated version still has an effect even if your target saves, making it less of a bummer. Similarly, paladins beng limited one smite/turn is a nerf to their ability to nova, but they got weapon masteries so their overal DPR actually improved. They are still an upper tier class, and monks have become one.

 

[Sulicius]

dumbest thing about 5.5e is moving all sub-classes to 3rd level.
sub classes, all of them should be at level 1!.

now, what power level of that 1st level feature it is can be debated and in most cases needs to be split between 1st and 3rd level, but what is mandatory for 1st level is:

extra skill proficiencies,
extra armor and weapon proficiencies,
bonus spells prepared.


rest can wait for 3rd level.

IE: dragon sorcerer can have AC bonus of +1 per sorcerer level, capped at Cha bonus, if +3 AC is too much for 1st level(it's not).

battlemaster can get two dice at d6 at 1st level and be upgraded to four dice at d8 at 3rd level as normal.

It's not dumb. It makes multiclassing slightly less obnoxious, and makes it easier for beginners to play the game. There are enough decisions to make at level 1 already:

• Class
• Species
• Background
• Equipment
• Spells
• Weapon Masteries
• Skills

Just start the game at level 3, not like we're all reaching level 20 too quickly.

 

[Mistwell]

dumbest thing about 5.5e is moving all sub-classes to 3rd level.
sub classes, all of them should be at level 1!.

now, what power level of that 1st level feature it is can be debated and in most cases needs to be split between 1st and 3rd level, but what is mandatory for 1st level is:

extra skill proficiencies,
extra armor and weapon proficiencies,
bonus spells prepared.


rest can wait for 3rd level.

IE: dragon sorcerer can have AC bonus of +1 per sorcerer level, capped at Cha bonus, if +3 AC is too much for 1st level(it's not).

battlemaster can get two dice at d6 at 1st level and be upgraded to four dice at d8 at 3rd level as normal.

I was going to disagree, because of multiclassing dips. But then I saw your rationale, and the things you'd want to see at 1st level, and you make a fair point.

 

[Horwath]

It's not dumb. It makes multiclassing slightly less obnoxious,

that is why I said that is should mostly be limited to proficiencies and bonus spells prepared.
with maybe some minor feature added

and makes it easier for beginners to play the game. There are enough decisions to make at level 1 already:

then one more will not matter at all.

• Class
• Species
• Background
• Equipment
• Spells
• Weapon Masteries
• Skills

Just start the game at level 3, not like we're all reaching level 20 too quickly.

and it is good for story also,

IE, scout rogue,
you get at 3rd level both proficiency and expertise in Nature and Survival.
you go from a guy that does not know where sun rises to expert survivalist.
it would be better if you got proficiency as a Scout at 1st level in Nature and Survival and then expertise at 3rd level. with the reaction movement.

 

[Sulicius]

that is why I said that is should mostly be limited to proficiencies and bonus spells prepared.
with maybe some minor feature added

then one more will not matter at all.

No, it does matter. It's about complexity and choice overload. Why not spread out meaningful choices? I see this happen so much. Some meaningful feature is added to a class, and people moan they want it at level 1 because otherwise they don't feel like they are playing the class/subclass.

Just be patient. You get to level 3 in a couple sessions. Let people get a feel for their character first.

 

[Horwath]

No, it does matter. It's about complexity and choice overload.

it's not choice overload, as there is no overload.

There is only effort in learning the game.

I have seen new players start at 5th or 6th level without any problem and I have seen new players play 1st level rogues and barbarians and be terrible.
And it's down to one thing only, effort to learn the game.

 

[Sulicius]

it's not choice overload, as there is no overload.

There is only effort in learning the game.

I have seen new players start at 5th or 6th level without any problem and I have seen new players play 1st level rogues and barbarians and be terrible.
And it's down to one thing only, effort to learn the game.

When is the last time you played with new players?

And if starting at 5th or 6th level isn't a problem, why don't you wanna start at level 3?

 

[Horwath]

When is the last time you played with new players?

this year actually, and we started one campaign at 1st level.

And if starting at 5th or 6th level isn't a problem, why don't you wanna start at level 3?

it's multiclassing also,
no need to have overpowered abilities of a new class at 1st level, but all new basic tools should be there.

if there is a new subclass of a barbarian that can utilize heavy armor and keep all bonuses, I do not want to wait 3 levels for it.
That NEEDS to be available from 1st level, even if it's the only subclass features at 1st level.

IE:
you gain proficiency in heavy armor and all barbarian class features works while you wear heavy armor.

and then at 3rd level, you can gain something more powerful and in line with 3rd level power budget.

 

[CreamCloud0]

that is why I said that is should mostly be limited to proficiencies and bonus spells prepared.
with maybe some minor feature added

it may be a few minor features at level 1, but you're still making them pick a massive part of the trajectory of their character in that single decision

then one more will not matter at all.

that they already have a ton of decisions to come to terms with is not a good excuse to heap another big one on them.

and it is good for story also,

it has zero impact on story IMO except for people who can't comprehend telling a story for a few levels before the mechanics kick in.

 

[Horwath]

it may be a few minor features at level 1, but you're still making them pick a massive part of the trajectory of their character in that single decision

that they already have a ton of decisions to come to terms with is not a good excuse to heap another big one on them.

it has zero impact on story IMO except for people who can't comprehend telling a story for a few levels before the mechanics kick in.

I would say that in 99% of the cases you pick your subclass at 1st level, you just need to wait 2 level to actually have it.

especially when new people come with a character idea what they want to be, then you need to tell them that that version will come on-line in about 10 levels, hahaha.