D&D 5E (2024) A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes

[Horwath]

A character's game mechanics that are given to a "base class" versus given to a "subclass" are arbitrary. The designers just select a handful and then flavor them with their cutesy names to say that "these mechanics are from being a Cleric, and those mechanics are from being in the 'Light domain'." But what those mechanics are is just whatever a designer came up with. So there is absolutely no reason why a player or DM themselves couldn't just arbitrarily say that certain mechanics one gets at 1st level from the "class" are now going to be mechanics they get from their "subclass" and just assign them that way.

If a player is selecting the "Light Domain" at 3rd level because they are a Cleric of Lathander... then they can just say that certain mechanics they are getting at 1st level are because of their worship of the "Light domain" rather than because being a "Cleric" gave it to them. Just arbitrarily decide that the Light and Sacred Flame cantrips you select at 1st level are due to being a "Light domain" cleric. You're a Cleric of Lathander... there's no reason why that god granting you those two cantrips wouldn't be due to His domain. Lathander's "favored weapon" is the Mace... so there's no reason to not to believe that the reason why your Cleric is proficient in the use of the Mace is because of their training as a Light domain cleric of Lathander-- so their Simple weapon proficiency is attributed to the domain as well. Just take a couple of your 1st level Cleric features and "decide" they are now "Light domain subclass features" because why not? It literally does not matter.

I mean after all... the game designers have already said that when a character of 1st level sees their proficient Skill list in its entirety... some of those skills are "from their class" and some are "from their background". But once the selection has been made and you now have your skill proficiency list, where those skills "come from" never matters. You just have your skill list. So by the same token, once you have your features it doesn't matter where those features come from or what arbitrary bucket they came out of... so just reassign those features at 1st level to the various buckets as you want-- Class, Subclass, Background or whatever. It doesn't matter in the slightest. You have your features and you are going to use them, and you're never going to ever think about where you got them after the fact.

100% this,
subclasses are just feat chains.

 

[DEFCON 1]

100% this,
subclasses are just feat chains.

Wait... if you agree with me, then why did you say earlier you wanted subclasses to start at 1st level? Shouldn't it be that you don't care what level subclasses start at, since by my metric that you agreed with, one can just assign base class features to the "subclass" whenever they want? And thus a person can have "subclass features" at 1st level right now in the current 5E24 game even though the designers gave the first written-down ability at 3rd? I'm not sure I know what you're arguing for anymore, LOL!

 

[TwoSix]

Wait... if you agree with me, then why did you say earlier you wanted subclasses to start at 1st level? Shouldn't it be that you don't care what level subclasses start at, since by my metric that you agreed with, one can just assign base class features to the "subclass" whenever they want? And thus a person can have "subclass features" at 1st level right now in the current 5E24 game even though the designers gave the first written-down ability at 3rd? I'm not sure I know what you're arguing for anymore, LOL!

I think the deeper question about starting with subclass at 1st level is "How much of your character concept is pre-defined before the game starts"? Is the game about "character expression" (using the table time to demonstrate your character concept) or "character growth" (the PC is much closer to a tabula rasa at the start and over time assumes their final concept)?

 

[zakael19]

I think the deeper question about starting with subclass at 1st level is "How much of your character concept is pre-defined before the game starts"? Is the game about "character expression" (using the table time to demonstrate your character concept) or "character growth" (the PC is much closer to a tabula rasa at the start and over time assumes their final concept)?

And given how much some subclasses require deliberate L1 / stat choice that are very different then others, are many people really going "yeah Imma play a Fighter and then see how I feel at L3" or are they like "Imma play a Weapon master and just passing the time until I hit 3!"

Given my table experience and how I've seen people call out their characters, I'm guessing the latter a vast majority of the time.

 

[FrogReaver]

And given how much some subclasses require deliberate L1 / stat choice that are very different then others, are many people really going "yeah Imma play a Fighter and then see how I feel at L3" or are they like "Imma play a Weapon master and just passing the time until I hit 3!"

Given my table experience and how I've seen people call out their characters, I'm guessing the latter a vast majority of the time.

yep. Subclasses even at level 3 tie to much into your level 1 decisions. Both mechanical and narrative.

Like pre choosing your subclass helps on both but if your doing that then why not just pick at level 1.

 

[DEFCON 1]

yep. Subclasses even at level 3 tie to much into your level 1 decisions. Both mechanical and narrative.

Like pre choosing your subclass helps on both but if your doing that then why not just pick at level 1.

Honestly... I'm on the train with those folks who think 'subclass at 3' was a multiclassing decision. When you put a subclass ability or two at level 1... that creates a heck of a lot more abilities that designers need to "balance" against due to the possibility of 1-level cherry-picking. And that can be more trouble than it's worth for the designers. Especially when most players are going to envision their subclass choice as part of their character at level 1 even though they won't get their first "unique ability" until level 3.

If you can imagine who your character is at level 1, you don't need a special game mechanic immediately to drive that imagination home.

 

[Zardnaar]

what newer critters? Dragon Delves did not have any, so the FR book?

FR and the DLCs.

 

[Sorinth]

Honestly... I'm on the train with those folks who think 'subclass at 3' was a multiclassing decision. When you put a subclass ability or two at level 1... that creates a heck of a lot more abilities that designers need to "balance" against due to the possibility of 1-level cherry-picking. And that can be more trouble than it's worth for the designers. Especially when most players are going to envision their subclass choice as part of their character at level 1 even though they won't get their first "unique ability" until level 3.

If you can imagine who your character is at level 1, you don't need a special game mechanic immediately to drive that imagination home.

But you could've just had the level 1 subclass abilities be the the flavour ribbon type abilities or otherwise just low power. So for example, an Arcane Trickster could get Mage Hand + maybe 1 cantrip at level 1 but no other spells and not even Mage Hand Legerdemain, then at level 3 they get their full complement of cantrips and spellcasting. In terms of power this is nothing since many species give access to a cantrip anyways. But it does set down the flavour for your character right away, it's clarifies skill choice + stat allocations, and I'd even say it would help people write their backstory a little.

 

[Sorinth]

What are you talking about? Their character is their character at level 1. If you "come online", then you are looking for some kind of build, and more interested in mechanics than in adventuring and growing stronger over time. You don't need to have your subclass features to say you gain your pact and channel divinity from a specific patron or deity.

Who "waits"? My players are playing their character and going on adventures from level 1. There isn't some feature that suddenly turns them into adventurers where they weren't that before.

I am starting to think you put mechanics before everything. The game is much more than that.

I assume what they mean is that if your character idea is say a stealthy ninja assassin type and at level 1 you decide on Monk, you've also probably already decided that you are going to be a Way of Shadows.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think you lose all credibility that your analysis has any objectivity whatsoever when you describe any and all design that you don't personally like as "lazy".

It's too bad, too - I think I'd enjoy a reasonable critical analysis of the classes.