D&D 5E (2024) A critical analysis of 2024's revised classes

[Sulicius]

I would say that in 99% of the cases you pick your subclass at 1st level, you just need to wait 2 level to actually have it.

especially when new people come with a character idea what they want to be, then you need to tell them that that version will come on-line in about 10 levels, hahaha.

What are you talking about? Their character is their character at level 1. If you "come online", then you are looking for some kind of build, and more interested in mechanics than in adventuring and growing stronger over time. You don't need to have your subclass features to say you gain your pact and channel divinity from a specific patron or deity.

Who "waits"? My players are playing their character and going on adventures from level 1. There isn't some feature that suddenly turns them into adventurers where they weren't that before.

I am starting to think you put mechanics before everything. The game is much more than that.

 

[Horwath]

What are you talking about? Their character is their character at level 1. If you "come online", then you are looking for some kind of build, and more interested in mechanics than in adventuring and growing stronger over time. You don't need to have your subclass features to say you gain your pact and channel divinity from a specific patron or deity.

Who "waits"? My players are playing their character and going on adventures from level 1. There isn't some feature that suddenly turns them into adventurers where they weren't that before.

I am starting to think you put mechanics before everything. The game is much more than that.

to "come online" is when someone says he wants to play Green arrow.
Sure, at 1st level you will be the version that just learned how to use a bow and track a herd of elephants over muddy field.

If you want to deal indiscriminate justice alone around Starling city, you might need to be level 7-10.
maybe even some fighter/rogue multiclass.
whatever your fictional idea is, we will find some way to have it be playable. just not right away.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Okay, to clarify, i don’t think the concept behind multiclassing is bad and should be removed, being able to combine class archetypes and features, BUT i think the current incarnation of multiclassing is pretty terrible, classes have to be designed in consideration of the combinatorial potential of each other, a class you multiclass into IMO should not provide the same progression as if it were your primary class.

My preferred implementation would be everyone is technically monoclass, but with a very high degree of options of customisation that still lets you pick up other classes features, just in a way that doesn’t have to affect how the baseclasses are designed.

I like the multiclass rules as they are now.

But my preferred multiclass option is how final fantasy XI classes work:

You have one primary class and one secondary class.
Secondary class is always half the primary class level and a select few abilities are not available as subclass.

For D&D, I'd make it:

Level 1:

Option 1:
chose species, background and main class and a feat.

Option 2:
Instead of chosing a main class, chose two secondary classes. You get reduced features (like level 1 as muticlass as it is now, you must chose wither pact magic or spellcasting trait)

Level 2:

Option 1:
Chose a secondary class (a class that is half your total character level)

Option 2:
Chose a subclass (as they are now but improved to be as valuable as a class of half your level)

So combining this two options at both levels you either have:

Main class + subclass
Main class + secondary class

Two secondary classes + one subclass
Three secondary classes.

Resoning behind it:

Subclasses can be designed in a way that they are never combined with other subclasses. They are highly specialized.

So no eldritch knight + blade singer combination.

But you get a lot of freedom from being able to substitute a subclass for a secondary or even have 3 secondary classes without a specialization.

I am not sure how I'd design feat and subclass progression.
Probably just using total character level seems like a good idea. Another question is how spell levels add up,since it is possible to have a spell progression that is up to 1.5 spell levels.

Maybe spellcasters only add 2/3 caster level towards total spell progression as main class and 1/3 as subclass. And most caster specializations add 1/3 caster level progression. And you round fractions up (like eldritch knight and arcane trickster). Math is a bit ugly.

But spellcaster table could also be adjusted to have 30 levels instead of 20. And you get another spell level every 3 levels.

 

[mamba]

MM probably needs a rewrite. The newer critters in 5.5 products are scarier than 5 5 MM.

what newer critters? Dragon Delves did not have any, so the FR book?

 

[Horwath]

I like the multiclass rules as they are now.

But my preferred multiclass option is how final fantasy XI classes work:

my preferred multiclass rules would be even split between classes, but those splits usually are terrible.
you really need to work something special to make fighter 6/wizard 5 be better than fighter 11 or wizard 11.

So, I have special rule where MC characters gain more class levels that single class but with same HP/HD and proficiency bonus.

IE:
at 5th level you have class features of 3rd level in both classes HPs/HDs of 2+2 and 5th HP increase is of lower HP class.
at 8th level that is repeated and now you have 5 levels in both classes but only HPs of 4+4 class and proficiency bonus normal for 8th level(+3)
at the end you have 13 levels worth of features in both classes but HPs as normal; 10 for one class and 10 for other class, with prof bonus of +6.

 

[mamba]

My preferred implementation would be everyone is technically monoclass, but with a very high degree of options of customisation that still lets you pick up other classes features, just in a way that doesn’t have to affect how the baseclasses are designed.

I much prefer the Shadow of the Demon Lord / Weird Wizard approach. Have a base class for the first few levels, another class after, and another one after that (levels 1, 3, 7, for the 10 level game, for D&D and 20 levels, add more layers)

 

[mamba]

it's down to one thing only, effort to learn the game.

sure, and subclasses at first level increases the effort required

 

[DEFCON 1]

A character's game mechanics that are given to a "base class" versus given to a "subclass" are arbitrary. The designers just select a handful and then flavor them with their cutesy names to say that "these mechanics are from being a Cleric, and those mechanics are from being in the 'Light domain'." But what those mechanics are is just whatever a designer came up with. So there is absolutely no reason why a player or DM themselves couldn't just arbitrarily say that certain mechanics one gets at 1st level from the "class" are now going to be mechanics they get from their "subclass" and just assign them that way.

If a player is selecting the "Light Domain" at 3rd level because they are a Cleric of Lathander... then they can just say that certain mechanics they are getting at 1st level are because of their worship of the "Light domain" rather than because being a "Cleric" gave it to them. Just arbitrarily decide that the Light and Sacred Flame cantrips you select at 1st level are due to being a "Light domain" cleric. You're a Cleric of Lathander... there's no reason why that god granting you those two cantrips wouldn't be due to His domain. Lathander's "favored weapon" is the Mace... so there's no reason to not to believe that the reason why your Cleric is proficient in the use of the Mace is because of their training as a Light domain cleric of Lathander-- so their Simple weapon proficiency is attributed to the domain as well. Just take a couple of your 1st level Cleric features and "decide" they are now "Light domain subclass features" because why not? It literally does not matter.

I mean after all... the game designers have already said that when a character of 1st level sees their proficient Skill list in its entirety... some of those skills are "from their class" and some are "from their background". But once the selection has been made and you now have your skill proficiency list, where those skills "come from" never matters. You just have your skill list. So by the same token, once you have your features it doesn't matter where those features come from or what arbitrary bucket they came out of... so just reassign those features at 1st level to the various buckets as you want-- Class, Subclass, Background or whatever. It doesn't matter in the slightest. You have your features and you are going to use them, and you're never going to ever think about where you got them after the fact.

 

[Horwath]

sure, and subclasses at first level increases the effort required

and for people is completely irrelevant.

for those that want to learn, they will learn that little addition, those that do not want will just ignore it with everything else.

 

[mamba]

and for people is completely irrelevant.

for those that want to learn, they will learn that little addition, those that do not want will just ignore it with everything else.

it’s not that they won’t, it’s that it is yet one more thing to look into before you can start rather than after you have started. Less front loading is better